8729(a)(1) vs. 6731.2

[khuerth]

I was having a discussion with another surveyor regarding 8729(a)(1) and he brought up 6731.2 and after I spent a little time reviewing both they seem to contradict each other? Any thought or opinions that can help me out?

8729(a)(1) states that a surveyor must be an owner, partner or officer of the company, but 6731.2 states that the work just needs to be done by or under the direction of a licensed surveyor?

For reference:

8729. Land surveying businesses
(a) This chapter does not prohibit one or more licensed land surveyors or civil engineers licensed in this state prior to 1982 (hereinafter called civil engineers) from practicing or offering to practice, within the scope of their licensure, land surveying as a sole proprietorship,
partnership, limited liability partnership, firm, or corporation (hereinafter called business), if the following conditions are satisfied:
(1) A land surveyor or civil engineer currently licensed in the state is an owner, partner, or officer in charge of the land surveying practice of the business.

6731.2
Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform that work, provided all the land surveying work is performed by, or under the direction of, a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying. Further, any registered civil engineer may manage or conduct as manager, proprietor, or agent, a civil engineering practice which offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental land surveying work.
emphasis mine

Thanks for the replies.

[Ric7308]

You really should contact the Board with this question

Laws and Regulations
Questions about the Professional Engineers Act, the Professional Land Surveyors' Act, and the Geologist and Geophysicist Act, and the associated regulations, should be directed to the Board's Enforcement Unit at (916) 999-3593 or BPELSG.Enforcement.Information@dca.ca.gov.

[DWoolley]

...
6731.2
Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform that work, provided all the land surveying work is performed by, or under the direction of, a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying. Further, any registered civil engineer may manage or conduct as manager, proprietor, or agent, a civil engineering practice which offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental land surveying work.
emphasis mine

Thanks for the replies.

Spoiler alert

"Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform that work..."

What does "...incidental to his or her civil engineering practice.." mean?

Anyone care to provide examples of "incidental to"?

DWoolley

[bryanmundia]

What does "...incidental to his or her civil engineering practice.." mean?

Anyone care to provide examples of "incidental to"?

DWoolley

I would say "incidental to" means that it is occurring in or associated with their practice. So, if a Civil does the design work for a sewer line, they could offer to perform the construction staking on that project as long as it is performed by a licensed surveyor (or pre '82 civil). They could sub-contract the work out to a licensed land surveyor and the agreement, payment, etc. would go through the civil who designed everything. This would also allow the civil to include a markup on the cost that they provide to the client, much like others do with their subconsultants.

[CBarrett]

It probably means that if you contracted out to do a grading plan, having to do a topo to start from can me included in that offer, and then a topo can be subbed out to an LS.
Doing a tentative map usually includes at least a record boundary and an encumbrance map, preferably a full boundary survey. These parts can be contracted by the civil and subbed out to a surveyor.

Regarding the initial post, I think much depends on the definition of an 'officer' is. After some research I see that officer can ber almost anyone given the authority to oversee the work, possibly including a non-employe (as long as their capacity and the org chart info is reported to the board).

I was scratching my head the other day what constitutes advertising and practicing land surveying. For example, a development company, supposedly without proper filings with the board of having a surveyor on staff, putting their logo on a subdivision map. That seems very close to advertising to me.

[LS_8750]

I'm yer huckleberry. 6731.2 means you get to stamp my map for breadcrumbs.
Everything the LS community fought for back in those days was smeared across their face with 6731.2.

Look at the record drawings for any nuclear power plant and note the RCE stamp on the title sheet. My army of politicians, land use lawyers, appraisers, condemnation experts, engineers and land surveyors, geologists and biologists will tell you where to place the property and easement lines and you will say thank you may I have another.

What is happening is much bigger than your stupid little stamp. Sign it.

Prickly I know. Go down that rabbit hole and you accept it as truth.

[Jim Frame]

It's a two-way street:

8726.1. Authority to offer to practice or procure civil engineering
Any licensed land surveyor may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure civil engineering work incidental to his or her land surveying practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform such work, provided all such civil engineering work is performed by or under the direction of a registered civil engineer. Further, any licensed land surveyor may manage or conduct as manager, proprietor, or agent, a land surveying practice which offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental civil engineering work.

[khuerth]

From the Board:

Section 6731.2 allows a licensed civil engineer who is not authorized to provide surveying services to contract with a licensed surveyor to provide surveying associated with one of the civil engineer's engineering projects. This law allows a licensed civil to offer to provide land surveying on projects where he or she is providing land surveying services but does not allow a licensed civil engineer to offer and contract to provide land surveying service which are not associated with one of his or her civil engineering project.

In other words, the civil cannot offer and provide services to provide a boundary survey on a property not involved in a civil engineering project.

[Jim Frame]

In other words, the civil cannot offer and provide services to provide a boundary survey on a property not involved in a civil engineering project.

That's a very narrow interpretation, and not one that I believe would hold up in court. In my opinion, "practice" in this context refers to the business, not to the provision of project-related engineering services. That would mean that if a client requests a boundary survey -- even one that isn't associated with any engineering services -- it's okay for the civil to accept the project as long as a surveyor or grandfathered civil oversees the survey work.

[Ric7308]

In other words, the civil cannot offer and provide services to provide a boundary survey on a property not involved in a civil engineering project.

That's a very narrow interpretation, and not one that I believe would hold up in court. In my opinion, "practice" in this context refers to the business, not to the provision of project-related engineering services. That would mean that if a client requests a boundary survey -- even one that isn't associated with any engineering services -- it's okay for the civil to accept the project as long as a surveyor or grandfathered civil oversees the survey work.

This is not a new situation nor the first time its come up. Its been dealt with for more years than I've been at the board and held up regardless

[Jim Frame]

Can you clarify, Ric? Which interpretation has the board endorsed?

[Ric7308]

Incidental offering of land surveying services by a civil engineer is project specific and not overall business. Civil engineer is prohibited from offering land surveying in a proposal/contract unless it is incidental to the the civil engineering work in same proposal/contract.