Acquiring Deeds

[kwilson]

I was able to get deeds from a person at a major title company for the entire state of California for free up til a couple weeks ago. Looks like they have pulled the plug. So I am looking for suggestions as to how to get vesting deeds and other documents without paying an arm and a leg.

Thanks for the tips.

Ken Wilson
I work in the Bay Area.

[David Kendall]

It is generally a question of volume or how many deeds you are needing each month. I have experience with parcel quest, data tree and courthouse direct. Probably courthouse direct makes the most sense for my levels. Jim Frame recently suggested netronline which looked like a good one that I have not yet tried. https://netronline.com/

See also:

viewtopic.php?p=56047#p56047

[Scott]

Did you try writing a Recommendation for your Title Person?

Using a link at the bottom of his email, I had written a Recommendation years ago for my guy when I discovered the service.
Recently, he hadn't been getting back to me.
I went to the Recommendation link at the bottom of his email again and wrote a fresh one.
Low and behold service started up again.
He also thanked me for the Recommendation.

I am not sure how often I am supposed do that though!

[kwilson]

I met with the Vice President of Builder Services for FNTG Builder Services. This company owns Chicago Title, Fidelity National, Ticor and a couple other title companies. He explained that there is a new law that prevents Title Companies from giving out freebies and in general wining and dining people to get their business. They have applied this to the practice of providing surveyors with recorded documents.

In the past many of us had a relationship with a Customer Service department at a title company and we could call in and ask for any documents we needed. I had this going up until a couple of months ago with First American Title. I could get current vesting deeds and other recorded documents for just about any county in California. First American went dark first so we reached out to Chicago. They are now telling us they can only provide the current deed for parcels. If other deeds are called out in the legal and we need them, they cannot provide them.

I tried Datatree. In our County they only have records back to 1973 which is nearly useless as we often order deeds much older than that. Netronline gives some nice phone numbers for Santa Clara County. Our county surveyor says he can get all the deeds online so we will try to pursue the Public Records Act for that. So I am just letting you know what is happening in the business of getting deeds. It's a problem.

[ekparian]

Ken,
Please let us know how that PRA request goes. I have the same problem with my title company. Our mutual CS (we practice in the same county) has told me that as well but has stated to me he cannot give them out. If you do get the request granted, that would be extraordinary positive. I would also pursue one. As you stated, it's very cumbersome and costly to get deeds referenced in current deeds and get all of the surrounding deeds for an ROS.
Thanks,
Drexyl

[Jim Frame]

so we will try to pursue the Public Records Act for that

Having been down the PRA road for filed maps in my home county, I know how much of a pain the rear it can be. And even if you do succeed, you're only going to get records current at the time the PRA request is fulfilled.

I haven't tried it yet for deeds, though I think about it every time I have to buy one, or -- worse yet -- have to drive to the county seat to get one because the service providers don't have it.

Does anyone know how the title companies get regular updates from the counties? They must have some sort of contract, and I'd be interested in learning what the terms are.

Given the need for every boundary surveyor in CA to have reliable access to maps and deeds, I'm wondering if this is a project that CLSA could take on -- making arrangements to obtain maps and deeds from every county and providing access to same to all PLS members. It might take a PRA lawsuit or two to establish the precedent, but maybe that'd be worthwhile.

[sako]

Getting the deeds is the basic for a survey. I have subscription from Realquest.com which I'm not happy with. I'm constantly in search of a better service.

[wingding]

Datatree and others quoted $100 for a single 1940's deed that I had provided the book and page.

[ekparian]

I'm wondering if this is a project that CLSA could take on

Is there a way we could try and get CLSA to take on? It gets very expensive to pull deeds being a small company doing many surveys. I even pull deeds for jobs I research to see what it would take to solve the boundary should I get it.
Would someone bring this issue up at the next meeting to see if it could gain any steam? I haven't been very active in meetings but stay current on the forum issues.
Thanks,
Drexyl

[DWoolley]

Last Friday I went to the Los Angeles County Recorder's Office to research and get copies of deeds.

Here is how it worked and how much it costs;

1. A member of the public cannot simply show up to retrieve documents. You must have an appointment. There is a phone number to set an appointment, but the message is to go to their website to set an appointment. No appointment, no access.

2. The old deeds are on the second floor. However, the old, old deeds are in the basement. Once you set an appointment for deed research, second floor, and you find an older document that resides in the basement, you have to set another appointment. Of course there is no way of knowing where the document resides until you get to the second floor and cannot find the documents.

3. Deeds cost $5 for the first sheet and $3 for each additional sheet ($45.75 for a 14 page deed). If paying with a credit card they charge another $1.75.

Deed research used to be one of the more pleasurable parts of the job. Now it is as miserable as a root canal. One silver lining, the folks that work there are very nice and helpful.

DWoolley

[Mike Mueller]

https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1193/id/2750561

Its a long long way from becoming law, with lots of chances for amendments etc. but there is an effort to hide all legal descriptions... Ostensibly to protect judges and elected officials from crazy folks trying to find them....

Copy of the pertinent part below:
"This bill would, except as specified, require a county recorder or other county official who manages a county’s property records to establish a procedure that, among other things, redacts personal identifying information from property records and only allows access to an unredacted property record in person at the office of the county recorder or other county official who manages the county’s property records." ( bolding mine)

Lots of bigger fish fighting that bill (IE the County Recorders group), but it would have a big impact on us. How it would play out with all the private collections of records?? I personally am not too worried, but if you have a chance to influence a politician it might be worth speaking up about the costs/impacts.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[DWoolley]

Readers likely know, they passed a law a few years ago to scrub recorded documents of language determined to be offensive i.e. red lining practices. I believe "millions of records" were scrubbed in Sonoma County.

https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/so ... 906742.php

Who amongst us would trust a lay or professional person to limit the document scrubbing to finite or select information a million times over?

I find untraceable deeds in a chain or missing deed information offensive.

DWoolley

[Mike Mueller]

Not quite. Here in Sonoma Co I am a Commissioner on the Historical Records Commission that has been briefed on the process several times directly from the Recorders' office. According to the updates from our recorder, the program has identified that there are many (thousands/tens of thoursands) of records to be eligible for the redaction. As far as I know, the local government is still in the process of getting a vendor to provide the services required to actually do the redaction. The redaction itself will be a re-recording of the old deed with some blotches over the "bad words". The original will not be touched and will always be available to read the "bad words" if needed/desired. Our total recorded documents as of 2021 was ±24,357,269 records, so for "millions" to be edited I think is a bit large of an estimate?

I have asked why there is so much effort going into doing this process, and I have yet to get a good answer. The "bad words" mainly fell out of the descriptions in the 1950's, so its pretty rare to find a current vesting that has the "bad words". Anyone doing research will go pull the old deeds, which will still have these "bad words" fully readable. My conclusion is that it is a long and expensive act of virtue signaling.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[DWoolley]

Good information Mikey. I should know better than to trust a real newspaper after so much has happened in recent years, habit I suppose.

DWoolley

[Mike Mueller]

I double checked with my county recorder and the general understanding they have based on discussions with other county recorders involved with this effort is that about 1% of the recorded documents would be eligible for the re-recording. So ±240,000 here in Sonoma County is what is expected.

Also, an upside that I wasn't aware of is that the process of searching and filtering will by necessity provide the county recorders office with a clean, searchable digital copy of ALL of its records. Something that would likely never be paid for otherwise....

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[hellsangle]

FYI: Marin County has a retired surveyor reviewing deeds for redaction.

[Jim Frame]

Also, an upside that I wasn't aware of is that the process of searching and filtering will by necessity provide the county recorders office with a clean, searchable digital copy of ALL of its records. Something that would likely never be paid for otherwise.

Meaning that any surveyor can obtain the entire dataset for the cost of media and some nominal fee for the tiny amount of staff time to execute the copy command, right?

[DWoolley]

Also, an upside that I wasn't aware of is that the process of searching and filtering will by necessity provide the county recorders office with a clean, searchable digital copy of ALL of its records. Something that would likely never be paid for otherwise.

Meaning that any surveyor can obtain the entire dataset for the cost of media and some nominal fee for the tiny amount of staff time to execute the copy command, right?

In California, the racial covenants were added during the Great Depression (1929-1939). The US Supreme Court ruled the covenants were unenforceable in 1948 - presumably ending the practicing of adding the language. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 created the recognizable protected classes prohibiting discrimination.

The "entire dataset", a deed recorded between 1929 and 1948, should be available after the scrubbing. I suspect the other 154 years of recorded documents will not be reviewed for scrubbing. Let us know if the contrary may be shown.

DWoolley