Gotta love the Rant Zone! by Lou Natique

[hellsangle]

The Rant Zone
By Lou Natique
So, you are unhappy with some aspect of local Surveying standards, or practices of local surveyors,
or any number of things that seem to leave you dyspeptic. You want to complain. You want an
audience of offenders to hear your appeal for common sense and reason. You want these shoddy
practices to stop! Most of us fellow surveyors would agree.
What do you do about it, these days? It used to be that you wrote editorials to the California
Surveyor magazine, or to the various newsletters, like this one, to express your opinion or air your
grievances. There was nothing wrong with that approach other than that it took more time to see
if you might have results – did anyone agree? Did anyone oppose? Then, later on, the CLSA
website began hosting a forum that had and has any number of threads, where you could visit, like
going to a digital version of the wailing wall, and vent your complaints, your suggestions for
improvement, or whatever else you wanted to opine upon. Allies and opponents would soon pop
up. But then, social media took off and now, instead of writing to the newsletter, or posting on
the forum, you air your subjective opinions or your sour grapes on LinkedIn. Immediate
gratification is yours! Hurray!
But in so doing you are now casting aspersions on the dignity and integrity of the profession of
Surveying which is okay, I guess, but you are doing it well beyond the limits of the profession.
What are the non-surveyors on LinkedIn to think when you make comments that seem to indicate
that some cadre of surveyors are corner-cutters, or bottom feeders? You just painted the entire
profession with a broad brush and now real estate people, and attorneys, and anyone else, whether
they have a dog in the fight or not, are privy to our dirty laundry, at least as you see it.
Your complaints are exactly why we have local chapters of CLSA. A better solution would be to
grow up and bring your concerns and comments to the chapter, if you sincerely want to see
changes made. This is how democracy works. Blathering on LinkedIn is just sniping from a
covered position. Not very sporting.

[DWoolley]

Any particular LinkedIn thread or post?

I am not well versed at LinkedIn. I recently received my 2 year anniversary note.

DWoolley

[hellsangle]

I don't do LinkedIn

[jamesh1467]

This seems pretty targeted. When I try to put myself in the older generations' shoes, it seems well intended, possibly even limited/revised heavily in an attempt to try and provide guidance/leadership. But I'm not a super big fan of limiting expressions by younger surveyors. Especially younger licensed surveyors.

However, I do agree that publicly bashing the profession outside of a forum like this that is specifically for surveyors is not something anyone should be doing for the best interest of the profession. There is a huge difference between voicing complaints within the profession to change the profession for the better than there are voicing complaints externally. I often even lie to certain people about my beliefs about the profession when asked because I know voicing my true feelings would hurt the profession, and there is nothing people externally could do about it. You won't see me do much more than support the profession externally and advise most people to do the same. Conversations with surveyors specifically or major business strategy conversations are different than public conversations.

But in general, I have seen some people who are incredibly likely to be the future leaders of the surveying profession speak out on linkedin. Possibly even people who have the potential to be the future CLSA presidents. Its a good thing that they speak out and that they care enough to speak out. I would advise those within the CLSA to listen to their concerns. People on linkedin and other social media methods either start to seem crazy or they start to become leaders once they start posting. It will happen naturally one way or another. And when they become leaders its a damn good thing and we should do everything in our power to support them, not silence them.

Personally, I don't come to chapter meetings because I tried to join a chapter back in the day as well as sponsor one and I'm not sure what happened to my application. But whatever. I'm still here. I don't hold a grudge.

I will say some debate whether or not the CLSA does anything in the younger generations I have talked to. And maybe the idea of the chapter issues is becoming a little outdated compared to the electronic resources that are available today for democratic participation.....such as this forum. Obviously, the CLSA is a massive resource for getting people licensed, but after that, as far a looking out for the future of those who are licensed to ensure we have a future in 2050 and beyond, I have some disagreements. I often share them here.

I am not incredibly active on linkedin, but I will share one of my comments about a post on LinkedIn a few months ago about whether or not the CLSA is a worthwhile organization. I cannot share the actual post without throwing someone else under the bus about their comments and they are free to speak for themselves, but I think you can get the context of what the post was about.

I have some massive disagreements with how the CLSA is being run and the advocacy methods it is pursuing for our industry. Frankly, if you ask me, the current situation for land surveying is the responsibility of organizations in every state like the CLSA. The licensing boards are only responsible for things we ask them to be responsible for; it is the responsibility of organizations like the CLSA to guide, direct, and enviably advocate for what we expect our licensing board to do.

That said, the surveying profession as a whole lives and dies by organizations like these. If the CLSA dies, surveying will soon die along with it. Who else would advocate for surveying without the CLSA? And if no one advocates for surveying, how long will it survive?

On the subject of disagreement with the methods of advocating, this isn’t about a small or big business difference, in my opinion. It’s about a younger vs older generation of surveyors. However, the solution is for younger generation surveyors to counteract the voices of older surveyors within the CLSA. Without the CLSA and making changes within the CLSA, surveying will die as a whole, with large corporations and small corporations together.

Effectively, you are asking younger surveyors to trust the system by joining the chapters. I trusted the system you all created for us and my career is in shambles because of it. The system needs some change. At least there are those willing to speak out and try to change it. But forgive us or at least me if we don't think the traditional methods of what most older surveyors see as the methods for change are the most effective ways to make those changes. I''ve learned some hard lessons about surveying in California after I became licensed by trusting the system that was created for me. Its hard to continue to blindly trust it as is suggested in this post. Maybe those who are posting on linkedin know something about the future of the profession that others do not, possibly even how to make those changes for the future, and I for one, would certainly like to see if they turn out to be right.

[No_Target]

This rant could easily apply to me - I have brought up multiple issues I have with our industry on the forums, on LinkedIn, and now also in the CLSA Magazine. I don't regret any of my industry whinging. I have publicly whined about corner cutters and bottom feeders. A lot of what I post on LinkedIn is related to a need to "maintain a presence" in order to advertise to help my business, but what I post is related to current frustrations I am experiencing with this industry.

We have prominent CLSA members with talks on Youtube and I assume the rest of social media expressing concerns and frustrations. That's a public forum. This is a public forum. Reddit is a public forum. The CLSA Magazine (searchable online) is a public forum. There is no way to post anything without it going to the public. I am involved in the CLSA, but it yields no results. My local CLSA Chapters are filled with retirees and soon-to-be retirees, along with people who work for the largest corporations. I am always one of the youngest in the room and do not get much traction when I express my concerns about the future of the industry. When I post on LinkedIn, the posts are national, so interaction with surveyors across the country is possible and yields beneficial conversations.

I'm not sniping from a covered position. I, Kyle Brook (PLS 9686 and Owner of Confluence Land Surveying) am calling out huge problems in our industry. My name is right there next to everything I say. It's hard to trust the CLSA and I sometimes doubt it has the best interest of the industry at heart. I am none of those things so I speak out in the attempt to have representation.

If you don't want to have other's see our industry in a bad light, let's improve our industry instead of silencing dissent. I am here and willing to hear other's viewpoints. I am here attempting to start conversations through honest dialog. Some people don't seem to like that but I have yet to be convinced that discussing our problems in public places is bad for our industry.

[DWoolley]

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant" Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis.

The truth is resilient and cannot be suppressed for any meaningful length of time. There is no such thing as "my truth" or "my lived experience" if it conflicts with the truth.

Our professional community has some issues that we should be willing to discuss in any forum. I am currently working through several land surveyors' testimony, contained in three volumes, that paints an unsettling picture of widespread corrupted practices that - according to testimony - is accepted and propagated regionally (throughout several counties). Unfortunately, the corrupted practices are not exclusive to that region - I have the receipts.

DWoolley

[David Kendall]

Like it or not we are discussing politics in it's pure form.

the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups

People who choose not to engage and work within the system, for any reason, have relinquished their right to complain in a meaningful way. If you don't show up to vote, the next best you can do is put a bumper sticker on your car or throw up a yard sign.

I actively support, mentor and encourage other professionals and business practitioners every chance I get.

Fostering dissent or division on social media does nothing to effect positive change. Feel free to exercise your freedom of speech but keep in mind that the general public has no concern over the finer points of your business matters or what constitutes a proper boundary survey and they will have marginal regard for the business and professions code (unless it is costing them money)

I received an email this morning from our CLSA lobbyist. They want to discuss proposed changes (which I initiated by filling out a one page form) to the business and professions code. These changes were suggested at our local chapter meeting, discussed and approved by the board of directors then sent to the legislative committee for wordsmithing. There is nothing earth shattering involved in the language and the changes will hopefully make some LS kook's life easier someday.

I understand that running a small business is tough. I have done it for 6 years and I have no idea how I lasted this long. I definitely would not have survived without the networking, sharing of resources and mentoring that I received through my involvement with CLSA, which I began 13 years ago as a starving land technician. This resource has proven invaluable. I continue to participate in order to pay it forward.

The fools who do not show up to receive payment are encouraged to piss and moan on facebook and linked in all day. You have a much wider public audience than I do here. Blame the large firms and CalTrans and the old-timers. I do it too but it doesn't help.

Anything you say will be used against you. Probably against me as well. Public disparagement of a profession from within will serve no one well. We need unity and collaboration to succeed

[No_Target]

To be fair - no idea if this post is about me... The Carly Simon song "You're So Vain" is about me (released 20 years before I got here but I'm pretty sure of this), but this could be a post about any number of people on LinkedIn. I am just here to have a pleasant debate and defend those who whinge on LinkedIn.

A few months ago, after hearing CLSA priorities for the upcoming term and looking at the impending release of 8771.6 - I took to ChatGPT, wrote a brief outline, and then had it spit out the following:

Who Do State Surveyor Associations Really Serve?
As a small business owner, I’ve been reflecting on who our state land surveyor associations truly prioritize. In my experience with the California Land Surveyors Association (CLSA), the support for small businesses like mine feels minimal. And honestly, why should it be?
Their biggest donors aren’t small businesses, and I’d wager most of their members work for large corporations. Anecdotally, it seems that large firm employees and retirees dominate attendance at meetings and events. Small business owners like me often struggle just to find a few spare hours, let alone attend meetings. The result? Objectives and practices that seem to cater to corporate interests, leaving smaller firms on the outside looking in.
I understand the importance of serving the majority, but I worry that by focusing so heavily on large corporations, we may inadvertently harm small businesses—the very ones that serve their local communities with personalized care and attention.
I love CLSA and the discussions it sparks, and I want to remain an active member. But as annual dues roll around, I find myself wondering if it’s worth it. Scraping together enough money to attend the yearly conference for myself—and maybe, if I’m lucky, my team—feels like an uphill battle.
This isn’t just about my situation; it’s about the bigger question of representation and support. Are state surveyor associations doing enough to balance the needs of large corporations and small businesses? Or are they unintentionally leaving smaller firms behind?
I’d love to hear from others:
Do you feel your state surveyor association effectively supports small businesses?
What changes could make these associations more inclusive and helpful for small firms?
Let’s start a conversation. If we want associations to better serve all members, it’s up to us to make our voices heard.

Is this really so bad? It certainly is kinder than anything I have said about NCEES on LinkedIn.

-I do show up and remain involved in CLSA, and I don't overly disparage our profession, in my opinion. Instead I try to voice concerns to a large audience in an attempt to facilitate conversations that may yield change. I'm not blaming old-timers, large firms, or CalTrans, but saying that they have different interests and the small operators, by nature of being small, have a smaller voice. I am trying in vain because I am vain enough to believe a group of people having a conversation can be meaningful.

I also, unabashedly, will tell you that my LinkedIn postings are a semi-weekly diatribe of a current thought I have processed through ChatGPT. The internet algorithms demand content to use LinkedIn as the marketing platform it is. It brings me in contact with other like-minded people who want to see change as a result of these efforts.

Kyle Brook
(PLS 9686)
(Person about whom the hit song "You're So Vain" was written)