Fence encroachment surveys

[E_Page]

Whether it's been stated or not, your potential client and the neighbor are already in a pissing match, and no matter what your conclusion is, one, the other, or both will not like it. Be prepared to have them try to pull you into the fight. If it is your client who does not like your conclusions, be prepared to have a difficult time collecting your fee.

I have one going that I was not made aware that it was a fence dispute until after showing up to do the work. Client gives me one of those, "by the way, my neighbor built a fence on my land..." lines.

There is an older (much older) fence involved to complicate things. My clients want the old fence recognized, although they've never maintained it. Their attorney told them that to pursue it, they would spend several tens of thousands, and likely not win. Last contact I had was that they wanted to keep going, but hold off for a couple of weeks.

Fortunately, and this is important if you proceed with the project, I have at every step of the project, kept my clients informed of my progress and repeatedly have told them that my conclusions may or may not support the line they want recognized once the survey is done. It seems a little odd that they don't seem to hear that when I say it, but I have been able to refer back to my correspondence that spells it all out clearly.

Also, my contract had a "pause clause" in it that allowed me to stop the original contract if any latent ambiguities were encountered (such as a 140 year old fence that will require significant fieldwork and research to determine if it really means anything relative to the boundary).

This clause puts the original Scope of Services in a holding pattern while the client decides whether or not to authorize the extra work to deal with the old fence, and, if authorized, to do that work. Once that work is completed, or if they decide to not authorize the work, I will complete the original Scope.

A fence fight can turn ugly for you as the consultant if you haven't covered yourself both contractually and in communication.

The only low cost solution for you is to pass on it. You may get lucky and find once your into it that it is a slam dunk survey and your client and his neighbor are willing and happy to leave the fence where it is or move it depending upon your results. But that is highly unlikely.

If someone else is willing to lowball it, let them have it. It's better to be going broke while being available for better work should it come along than to work really hard at going broke on a job that you wish you didn't have.

The best way to cover yourself while offering a reasonable fee to your potential client, is to give an estimate for a survey based upon the issues that you can see based upon your preliminary research and the info the client gives you, but write the agreement such that you get paid extra to deal with the unusual or unexpected.

[Gary O]

I completely agree with my esteemed colleague. I have folks come to my counter, wanting to know where to put up their fence. I tell them they need a surveyor to which they almost always reply "I don't need a survey, I just want to know where to put my fence." I tell 'em "You can make it sound as cheap as you like but you're asking the same question".

Fence disputes can get ugly in a heartbeat........

[Ric7308]

Gary, I like that..."You can make it sound as cheap as you like but you're asking the same question". Mind if I use that statement from time to time?

Evan has spoken wisely with much experience.

Ric

[Gary O]

I'd be honored. Please also send along 25 cents each time to help pay for my retirement medical bennys.

Evan SEEMS smart but he was lookin' over my shoulder during the LS exam.

(Class of '96)

[Ric7308]

He's still doing it now while writing the exam.

[E_Page]

With Gary sitting next to me, and Rob sitting in front of me, how could I miss?

That's why I am now an experienced A-Steamed Collie issuing words of wisdom.

I like that phrase too, Gary. I'll probably use it a couple of times before the year is out. Look me up at the conference and I'll give you $1 in royalties.
;-)

[E_Page]

Best of luck to them. I'm sure that they will get what they pay for.

[dmi]

I do not worry when I get calls about fence line surveys. If I am unable to overcome market objections(price issues) my feelling is that the client/ consultant relationship is not likely to be a successful relationship. In order to do the job properly, there must be enough of a budget to do all the tasks required to arrive at a sound professional opinion. That is the service I am offering- professional opinion. I am afraid that the client who is unduly concerned about the cost of professional services, may in the end pay too much for the services that they actually recieve and not be able to prevail in the event that the survey they obtain is unable to withstand any challenges.



I say don't worry be happy. I don't make the rules, I just work here.

[E_Page]

I didn't mean to imply that a surveyor should be worried or afraid to take on a survey because a fence may be at issue. But one should be aware of the potential hazards and be prepared for them.

I wear a helmet and pay a little extra attention to anticipate what other drivers are going to do when I ride a motorcycle. I am a little more careful with my contracts and communication when I have a client who hired me because of a possible encroachment issue. They are either in a fight, or believe that they soon will be over a fence or whatever, I'm just a little extra diligent to not get embroiled in it without ensuring that I'm covered financially and as to liability issues.

[dmi]

Well, I think perhaps I was unclear. I meant to say that I do not worry about getting the job. If I cannot make the case to client, about what the scope of services needs to be(with respect to fence line, improvements etc. and boundary line locations) and the fee for that scope, then it is likely there maybe other communication problems later on and I would happily avoid that scenario.

The problem is that given certain fact sets some fence line locations are easy, and some are ridiculously difficult. But to the client it seems simple enough, just hire someone to come out and with their gizmo thingy and measure the fence. The measurement is evidence and useful and we can do that simply. The tough part of the sell comes in when we have concluded by measurement alone that it is over here or it is over there. Now the fun part comes when we are challenged, in that we have to PROVE IT.

I agree that when you know there is trouble brewing or the potential of it
that we all are likely to be more alert, or wary, take extra precautions.
I am not sure this is a good way to do things. I try to keep in mind with every
survey, that I may be called to account for what I have done and that I had better have the answers to the questions of what I did and why. If you treat every survey as if it may wind up in court you will have to charge accordingly and this will drive up your costs and you will have fewer clients, if any clients at all, just like me, but you will have more free time to respond to posts on the CLSA message board.

[E_Page]

Well, lucky for us that all your would-be clients are too cheap to hire you. ;-D


Just to clarify, I was not implying that one should be undiligent in the performance of any survey. It's just that when I see this type of situation coming, I pay a little more attention to the contractual and communication issues than I otherwise might.

My standard contract is a good one, and my standard Scope of Work covers the bases pretty well, but if I suspect that I may have a contentious client, I make the effort to reiterate (as opposed to introduce things not normally in my contracts) some things in very clear language.

Contentiousness between client and consultant, as between the client and his neighbor, is often rooted in an unwillingness to see or understand the information and communication presented. In these cases, I make certain items extra clear in an attempt to forestall any argument over legitimate issues of billing or findings of my survey. Essentially, I try to do it in such a way that they would need to make a concerted effort to misunderstand some basic concepts such as : 1) My findings may place the line in some location other than where you expect it to be; and 2) If latent ambiguities are encountered, it will cost extra to sort them out. I also explain what a latent ambiguity is and give some common examples.

This course of action won't necessarily make the client a happy client, but at least it gives you a way to shut down needless argument before it gets off the ground, and gives you a means of being compensated for unforeseeable but necessary work.

[dmi]

Mr. Page your post on this topic was execllant as usual. But please do not put words in my mouth, I said I charge too much and then sort of hinted at my inability of not being able to make the sale and adequately justify my fee to the client. This is in no way a refelction on the potential client as being "too cheap". It's all my fault. I see now what you are saying. I concur, client management is very important for success where the issues may tend to cause tempers to flair and futher misunderstanding.

[goodgps]

"fenceline" surveys are a tough cookie. as made apparant by the response.
In these tough times, we are looking for just about any job that comes into being. Even so, if the Lots or property was not part of a recorded map, I let the client know that a record of survey must be filed if I have to set MY tagged monument. (or any monument for that matter) SOMETIMES, we and the client get lucky and find olde tyme corners set by a real surveyor prior to the Subd map act.

When/ if a fenceline encroaches, it is worth a full day to meet with both property owners to discuss the issue. Sometimes even after discussion, corners set survey filed, . . . a distrought owner will file suit.

so, to go back to the top, Fenceline surveys are indeed a tough cookie.
Take each case on its own merit and charge whatever the heck you want !
Property owners will not respect your liscense or your opinion if they feel slighted. look how they treat plastic surgeons. . . . Who came in asking for what ?

"Ear" Regarded

[sako]

Well, lucky for us that all your would-be clients are too cheap to hire you. ;-D


Just to clarify, I was not implying that one should be undiligent in the performance of any survey. It's just that when I see this type of situation coming, I pay a little more attention to the contractual and communication issues than I otherwise might.

My standard contract is a good one, and my standard Scope of Work covers the bases pretty well, but if I suspect that I may have a contentious client, I make the effort to reiterate (as opposed to introduce things not normally in my contracts) some things in very clear language.

Contentiousness between client and consultant, as between the client and his neighbor, is often rooted in an unwillingness to see or understand the information and communication presented. In these cases, I make certain items extra clear in an attempt to forestall any argument over legitimate issues of billing or findings of my survey. Essentially, I try to do it in such a way that they would need to make a concerted effort to misunderstand some basic concepts such as : 1) My findings may place the line in some location other than where you expect it to be; and 2) If latent ambiguities are encountered, it will cost extra to sort them out. I also explain what a latent ambiguity is and give some common examples.

This course of action won't necessarily make the client a happy client, but at least it gives you a way to shut down needless argument before it gets off the ground, and gives you a means of being compensated for unforeseeable but necessary work.

Dear Mr. Page,
I would really appreciate if you could publish the "pause clause" of your contract. I have a fence encroachment situation in my current survey which has been time demanding. I would love to see and add that clause in my contract with your permission.

[Ian Wilson]

Sako...

Here's mine:

The proposed cost covers the scope of work presented in this proposal. If, during the course of work it becomes evident that controlling monumentation or benchmarks which appear on record maps or project plans are disturbed, destroyed or missing or a material discrepancy with the information contained in any record map is discovered, additional services may be required. However, services beyond those outlined in this proposal will not be provided without the Client’s prior written consent as outlined in Section 2.1 of the attached Terms and Conditions.

The general terms and conditions as outlined in the attachment to this proposal will apply to the services provided.

[Ian Wilson]

And this from our Terms and Conditions:

2.3. Records of Survey. In the event that field conditions meet any of the criteria set forth in §8762(b) of the Business and Professions Code, a Record of Survey will be required by state law. The fees for preparation and filing of the Record of Survey, in addition to those set forth above, are estimated to be $2,000.00. By signing this agreement, client accepts responsibility for payment of these additional fees should a Record of Survey be required as described.

Ian

[E_Page]

I like Ian's better than mine. I think I'll work mine over a little to be more like that.

[LA Stevens]

and Materials Discrepancies.

I'm sure many of us have situations which may be relevent.

Ian, you state 2k for the ROS. Does that include the Checking Fee, which can change drastically dependent upon which county you may be working in. It may be covered in a different portion of your contract.