California Surveyors Forums

I say leave it up to the surveyor to determine if he should set a durable monument and file if he fills it would help another surveyor understand how he came to his point. Why give a man a license to go out and provide the public with the confidence to avoid clogging up the courts and helping layers enrich themselves on the contentions between owners, if you dont trust said license to make that determination. And while Im at it, perhaps if a CR and RS could just be counter stamped and signed by any other licensed surveyor would eliminate all the red bleeding the county trainees fill neccessary to let and justify their jobs. I don t need to put a radial bearing on a tangent curve, or mention every field book in history for a point. As long a another surveyor can follow and understand the plat, that should be fine, and why not allow ALTA's to be filed in lieu of, these are fine pieces of work and would do a lot to fix property lines.

Personally I believe by sharpening our pencils and giving the client what they want (or really need), our profession would be in much greater demand, by socializing our craft, we will certainly diminish its place the the market. Envision the day when a smart phone will give a owner line, this will only happen sooner if we cannot lower costs by competition. Some among us, of course, mainly those who came from the government sector, fear real competition, hence the witchhunt to stop those "evil" fence stakers. All I can say to whom much is given,much is expected, we relish RTK and robotics, but rather then focus on horning our skills with modern tools, we try to raise our profits by restricting competition.

When surveyors depend on "the law" to protect us from the future, we relinquish the power of our craft to reinvent itself (for over 3000 years). A "government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you got"

"........................Personally I believe by sharpening our pencils and giving the client what they want (or really need).....................,"

A fella told me once "I don't need pipes or a map, just show me my dirt." What about the neighbor? Guess he don't get a map. He gets a piece of pine or a redhead and 2 foot tall lath. It's done all the time by some surveyors, so what's the big deal? :)

."..............................I say leave it up to the surveyor to determine if he should set a durable monument and file if he fills it would help another surveyor understand how he came to his point....................................."

As I surveyor I leave stuff in the ground that is durable not only for the surveyor who follows me but first and formost for the landowner and his neighbor(and the successors in title) so that they can see forever (hopefully) where the corner is. The requirement for durable monuments has been around a long time, it's not my idea, but it makes sense if your a real surveyor. The monument is important, but the understanding of how its' position was established is via the map. The combination of the two is really slick. I know how it feels to find that pipe that was set 5 years ago or 80 years ago. I also know how it feels to not find that pipe that wasn't set. Durable monuments are good. It's like Nirvana man. It can't get any better(as long as they are in the right place).

".................. only a court can establish a property line,............................"

Not as I understand the law. Me and my neighbor can establish and agree to our common property line without any court giving their approval.

"..........................................the definition of a property line is an imaginary line dividing two ownerships......................."

Well maybe so, but once I pull a string from one pipe to another, I don't need any imagination to see the line.

This thread has been "dead" for four years. You covered a lot of "ground" in your last six posts Sanchez, too bad you don't want to leave me anything of yours to find.

These arguments I present are not imaginary, about 5 years ago I staked a fence for a fellow who did not pay his bill, so I filed a lien and he complained to the board. The board responded with a heavy hand, so I stopped staking fences, walls, garages etc, without including a fee for setting the corners and filing a CR, needless to say, I lost about 30% of my business, not to other surveyors necessary, but often the client would say the cost of the survey exceeded the cost of the fence, so he was just going to build it where he thought it went. I suppose some of these end up clogging up our already overburdened court system and costing the taxpayer money. So what is the greater good, for a person skilled to "re-establish" a boundary (which by the way, must somehow have been lost) using simple Cartesian geometry and modern survey equipment and setting the fence within an tenth or so, given that this is explained to the owner, or pricing ourselves out of work? My contracts used to be if I could stake the fence for so much I would do it, but if I could not I reserved the right to withdraw the contract. Now I understand that Most CELSOC agreements have the Record of Survey clause in them obligating the client to pay for it, but when I compare my contract with such contracts and ask the owner if he realizes that he will be responsible for a potentiality larger expense then the my "fixed lump sum", not one of them knew, so why are these "holier then thou" surveyors, failing to disclose this to the client, is it because they realize they can only get the contract by hoodwinking them? It should be in 12 font "You may be responsible for additional charges exceeding $3000 if you sign this contract". Then those surveyors would soon change their minds, as their livelihood evaporates beneath their feet.

Also, "pulling a string" does not, and cannot constitute a property line, maybe piano wire with no breeze.

Also, I cannot leave "anything to find" if I didn't get the job. How many projects have you been on where numerous "control points" are marked, yet there is no public reference to be found, and you know by the project size, these are major firms. Not complaining, just explaining. By the way, a RTK or Robotic controlled D8 doesn't leave "anything to find" when cutting property lines on a subdivision.

Seems as though the "heavy hand" of the Board, which included 34 Causes for Discipline, involved a whole lot more than setting temporary line markers for clients to use to build fences.

Actually most of it is about staking fences, of course then they insisted I file CR's which I did, then they said they were not timely, because 90 had passed since the construction stakes were placed, although the boundary survey was done at a latter date. And because I didn't have the 5 elements of a proper survey contract. One is for a late RS, after I had left a firm the failed to finish, and never forwarded it to me. In the end it comes down to the board wanting to take my license for the first time I have a problem in 31 years for setting construction stakes for a private homeowner, because Mr.Wooley can't stand for another surveyor to underbid him. I have set basically the same type of stakes for Caltrans, MWD, literally thousands of tract homes, Psomas, DEA, Sikant, Mollenhauer for commercial and public works without any problems.

It is important because I have 2 letters the board published which state that a surveyor need not file a corner record if setting points along a line of an recorded lot, unless a RS is triggered. The line is of course already established by the subdivision map and if the shoe fits...

This all happened before they changed the law
(4) The establishment  of one or more points or lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey, the positions of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or record of survey
to:
(4) The  location, relocation, establishment, reestablishment, or retracement  of one or more points or lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey, the positions of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or record of survey

"Also, "pulling a string" does not, and cannot constitute a property line.................."

Oh yes it is!!! When pulled between the corners of the lot.

There is the world as it is, and then there is the world as I see it. When the two do not coincide, that's when I can get into trouble. Don't let this happen to you. GFL cause you will need it.

I am completely speechless in regards to the ignorance of some people in our profession.

Mr. Sanchez, the content within your posts lacks a clear and concise vision, so much so that I don't think I can even begin to comment.

I can give you some advice though; focus within and try to see if you can find peace with what you have done in your professional career.

I had a very wise person once tell me that if everyone seems to be out to get you they probably are, but that doesn't mean that you aren't wrong. Quit placing the blame on everyone around you for your lack of foresight, skill, ethics, morals, etc.

You sir, are the problem. You're practices are the reason that our profession is not understood and damages the public. The way that you describe your "surveying" is nothing better than me picking up a day laborer, taking him to my home, and telling him to put the fence where he thinks it goes. Lipstick on a pig is what you are. I would be ashamed if I were you, an I mean that in the most respectful way possible.

I am proud to say that I work in this industry and one day (hopefully soon) I will be proud to say I am a licensed surveyor. I feel that I can make an impact on this profession, that I can provide the public with a service, make them aware of what a surveyor truly does, and I know that it can only happen if I abide by the law, respect my fellow peers and keep an open mind to the principles of the profession and continue to learn.

I have to live with what I do everyday. The only person that can account for my actions is me. As Mr. Hall said, GFL you truly do need as much of it as you can possibly get.

Every day for 3000 years surveyors have gone out and do exactly what I do, give the client the lines they need. Lofty ivory tower intellectuals who believe they are better then the rest of us, are free to post their opinions, but as you can see, they refuse to address the actual issue, which is, when the Board issues a resolution, 96-03 question F "Does the staking of a fence line that is purported to be the property line establish a line requiring a Corner Record or Record of Survey?...Answer: ... No, if the fence staking is along a previously established boundary or property line..." Question D concerning staking a foundation "Answer ...No, when an existing boundary or property line has been previously established...unless...no information exists on a map of record,,,"

"never trust a surveyor with soft hands"

"Just because we are the second oldest profession, doesn't give us the right to think were better then everyone else, otherwise the first oldest profession would have the same rights"

Quit with the dog and pony show Mr. Sanchez. The board only intervenes when all other options have been exhausted. I am sorry that you have put yourself in this position. I can understand your anguish and pain, an entire lifetime of work, falsely built on this thought that you were "doing the right thing" and being the "good guy" to Susie Homeowner.

I would imagine that most people who are sent to meet their maker have the same form of guilt and retaliation that you do at the current moment. Blame everyone else for your problems.

Really, "pull a string line for PL" I did an encroachment survey where my clients wall contractor did just that, Oh, being ignorant, he didn't know about the slight deflection by the slight westerly breeze the day he built the wall, well it cost him plenty, and I hope he, like some other ignorant people, learned a valuable lesson"

Never heard of a surveyor who can measure as accurate as you as stating regarding your wall contractor. Must have either been a pretty stiff breeze or a really loose string.

Board only intervenes..., well, intervene in what, the first complaint was a deadbeat, I filed a lien and the board then contacted me, I then filed a CR, for free, the client paid nothing for the construction stakes on an established tract, by which he built his fence and the corner record I later filed, again at no cost. Perhaps the Board should try to help me collect, instead they continue with enforcement. The second the client wanted stakes to set his garage, on an established tract, Mr. Wooley, filed a complaint, although the client was perfectly satisfied, I suppose Mr. Wooley thought I was lowballing him, but no, I have robotic and RTK and can CAD up a block is less then an hour, research is via internet and I can make a small profit, while I imagine his overhead is much higher and his skill level much lower, otherwise his close proximity to the job would save several hours and he would have got the job. This is how some surveyors restrict competition, by filing unwarranted complaints to their competitors. Perhaps if a surveyor makes a complaint he should have to file a sworn statement that he had no possible interest in the job. And if the surveyor is "unknown" it should be put in the permanent file. Anyway, I went back did a boundary survey set a witness to the back corner and filed the CR, but again the board complained it should have been 90 days from the construction survey. See my previous post for board resolution not requiring CR in these instances.

"take out the board in your eye, before you try to take out the splinter in another"

Mr. Sanchez,

I am certain that final resolution of the 34 Causes for Discipline that the Board has documented, and the resulting disciplinary action(s), or not, resulting from the hearing of said matters, will not be done on this discussion board. However, to continually focus your "argument" on the "fact" that two letters from the Board somehow exonerate you from all of the alleged findings seems very strange and bordering on delusional, based on what I read (dated 11/12/14). There are lot more allegations in that document than simpy failing to file a timely corner record that resulted from you putting in construction stakes for a fence. I have never met you, nor even heard of you before yesterday, when you started defending your case by bashing the Board, and attacking other professionals in this thread. Your comments led me to look up the "heavy handed" Board tactics you mentioned. I cannot speak for any other professionals who may have read your comments, but I could not help but form an opinion on your "professionalism" based on the statements you have made and the formal Causes for Discipline filed against you. Based on the attitude you have portrayed thus far, I doubt that you are concerned with what your fellow professional land surveyors think. That seems very unfortunate.

SPMPLS

I have used more string line then any other surveyor I know, but this was expensive real estate a few blocks from the beach, he should have use a laser or piano wire. It pretty obvious some dont know the limit of the tools they use, or dont respect the value of their work, but he had to tear down the wall and rebuild, that, my fiend, it the facts.

My reason for this discussion it to understand why, when the board has issued a Policy Resolution (96-03) giving instruction when a CR is required, and my work did not fall under that requirement specifically as the resolution is written, that is construction stakes on an existing tract properly located without triggering a RS, how is some surveyors continue to insist that a CR is required, and further, how come if a CR is required for a single line in a tract, then why not for the tens of thousands of construction stakes established by such lines. Some argue that said improvements are not related, but every good surveyor makes sure the boundary closes and he is tied into it before establishes said improvements, hence all improvement plans on a project are related to it's limits (PL) by coordinates (dimensions). Can you help me on understanding these issues, as I need to explain it to lay persons.

sanchezmikea wrote:I have used more string line then any other surveyor I know, but this was expensive real estate a few blocks from the beach, he should have use a laser or piano wire. It pretty obvious some dont know the limit of the tools they use, or dont respect the value of their work, but he had to tear down the wall and rebuild, that, my fiend, it the facts.

You must not know many surveyors.