California Surveyors Forums

Mr. Tom Foster,

I was raised with the ethics of a land surveyor (my father LS4599). I've been surveying since I was able to hold the "stick" or called by other names! I've known John Knox since 1989 at the County of Orange and I to note his credability as a hard working surveyor! The amount of percentage deducted from a Public Works Employee pay check for pension has alot to do with years of service and age (less time and younger the higher the percentage paid in)! My pension is deducted every two weeks for a total of: MEDICARE-EE $44.14 plus RET-SM PICKUP $132.72 plus RET-2-GEN-EE $401.35 = $578.21 per check ($1252.79 per month that was calculated on a HP41CX is 18.1%). My medicare contribution went up this year. We do not have a social security deduction. The pension triangle grows as people are added to the system. Unfortunately, other County departments / agencies haven't been on the same program as the Public Works Agency in regards to their contributions. As mentioned earlier, many upper management, sheriffs, fire, safety etc have gotten the free pension with no personal contributions. This is now changing but it's still not at the same level as the Public Works Employees. If my pension is under funded then my mortgage and everyone else's mortgages are underfunded as well. In time (30 years) the house is paid off and you and your spouse will enjoy your retirement! Peace Out!

John,

Yes you do have credibility with me, but I need to verify this. You are telling us that $1128 is deducted from your pay each month to go into your retirement fund? That would leave you, after typical taxes and other deductions, about $3200as net pay out of a gross of about $6200 per month. Is that what you're saying it is? I'm having a hard time comprehending that unless it is a staged contribution over 3 to 5 years where the employer pays progressively more and the employee pays progressivel less as a longevity incentive. El Dorado County does (or did) something similar.

A person not in government employment continually putting that high a contribution into their private retirement account would run into IRS limitations, triggering penalties and quite probably an audit.

In the past, I have worked for agencies at federal, state, and county levels, and with a little more than half of my experience being in the private sector ranging from rodman to business owner. I know and have felt both sides of any issues between those two sectors. I currently work for a public agency, so I'm not with landbutcher (Tom?) on the wholesale characterization of public employees as dead wood. I will say that both the laziest, most worthless employees, AND the hardest working, most dedicated and underpaid employees I've known have each been public sector. Government employment seems to get the extremes in this regard.

While a public sector surveyor is, in 2011 making the same or more than their private sector counterparts due to widespread underemployment in the private sector, 3 years ago, and back when I was with the County, my private sector counterparts were typically making about the same as I on the low end, and 1 1/2 to twice as much at the higher end at the same level of responsibility. While I don't view this job as a guaranteed lifetime position, there is a tradeoff of better benefits and job security for what is generally 10% to 20% less pay in normal economic times.

I haven't been bashing public sector employees. But I will say that the expectations of some who expect guaranteed continued employment with continual raises and no belt tightening when others can't find work to make enough to pay their basic expenses is not realistic and even selfish.

I suspect that his friend didn't officially begin drawing a retirement income at 42, but rather some form of disability payment. I figure, even if I get the pension under the deal in place when I joined this outfit, I'll have to work until I'm 70 or 72 before I can retire with a payment amount that will cover living expenses without also having a sizeable retirement account outside of the pension system. I don't expect social security to exist, at least not such that it can do any more than provide a minor supplement to other retirement payments by the time I retire.

land butcher wrote:""Mr. Foster, If your going to insist on throwing around such factoids,..."
Show me where I am wrong.

Sorry, I didn't realize you're name was Tom Foster until reading the last few posts. I was referring to Mr. Ian Foster, PLS 8586. The 16% to 24% employee retirement contribution just doesn't seem at all realistic. But I will admit I'm wrong and apologize if someone provides verification.

But I also want to address context. The implication of the original statement was that all OC employees contribute that much. But if any do, I suspect it is a staged contribution decreasing dramatically over the first few years of employment, and that those who are beyond a certain point (3 to 5 years) probably contribute, at the most, 5% of their salary, and probably quite a bit less than that.

Mr. Page, as John and I have demonstrated, the Orange County Public Works employee is contributing in a range of 16% to 24% percent depending on their age of hire and years of service (John and I have over twenty years of service and are at the 50+ age and we both contribute similar amounts). The younger generation are less fortunate and contribute at a higher rate. Some take advantage of the before tax deferred compensation plan. As you can see I've tried to explain that our government agency has made significant strides at holding the employee more accountable to their pension goals. It's time the other agencies hold to their responsiblity as well.

Evan,
My take home pay is $3550 (no social security deduction, member plus one dependent with Kaiser, no dental or vision coverage except through the union, for an additional fee). My retirement deduction was locked in based upon my age upon enrollment at 18.2% - true fact. Not complaining, it was my choice to go public. From my experience, most or all public employees have a reason for their public service. Some are truly welfare cases, that is, unemployable in any other reality. Some are in it for job security. Some are excellent workers but don't do well under the production pressure of the private sector. Others like the task variety and the opportunity for personal growth. I myself am selfishly in it for the time off. I skimp and save up every available hour of leave time and enjoy 6 week vacations and the like (at least I used to until I started this new job). And believe me, nobody, but nobody rails on the unproductive government teat-lappers like I do - just ask some of my unproductive former coworkers at Caltrans (disclaimer - Caltrans employs some of the finest, most dedicated surveyors with whom I have ever had the privilege of serving during my 31 years as a surveyor). I just take offense at the blanket public sector bashing. The whole haves vs have nots argument from Wisconsin is tiresome. One thing I wish for the world, being ever the optimist, is that if we see someone with benefits a little bit better than those we ourselves have, we should collectively fight to win those benefits for all who are worthy, not try to drag that person down to our level. Anyway, thanks for your respectful comments. See you again one day. I won't spew any more socialism on this thread.
JK

I stand corrected. Sorry, Ian. Anyone who puts that much away toward retirement deserves a good retirement income. It would seem that anyone in OC has no room for complaint regarding county employee pensions.

Agreed that's a pretty good chuck of change, but SS was 12.4% 10.4 now but no COLs for 2 years min and medicare costs $90/month and the benefits just went down and the deductibles up. And self employed pay the whole 16%

When I was in public service the pay was low, but the days off and job security was great, the retirement not even close to what it is today.

I am not a person to sit around when there is nothing to do, i prefer to get done and go home.

My State survey truck had 3 5lb cans of redheads and you could eat off the floor. My city job some days plenty of work many looking busy. Politics suk'd. Pretty bad when engrg had to stay late and steal the on site grading plans from the building dept to make sure the street matched the dwy entrances.

Todays govt worker has not only lots of paid holidays, and prof days, but their pay equals or exceeds private, much better retirement, and total job security. No days off due to rain or lack of work. And to hear most they still are not happy. Not picking on just surveyors here, Im referring to all govt jobs, and the police, fire and teachers seem to be insatiable and what they get seems to trickle down.

And too many are saying the govt employee pensions are unsustainable. And according to public records published in the OC register the average OC teacher is getting $48k per year.

Personally I would prefer that everyone, private, public and elected, all paid into one system with the personal option of a personal IRA non matched. And SS would probably be ok if the Feds would quit stealing the money from it.

And 16 State holidays....sick days, 3 prof days... 10 days vac the first year when most private is 5, you have to admit that in the last 30 years the employees unions have tipped the scale well in favor of public employment over private.

Thanks for that Evan; be sure I took no offense. Great respect for your commitment to our profession. Keep in mind that I only speak for employees of Public Works. Police and fire employees have a much better deal - smaller contribution, higher percentage, lower retirement age, and they can use OT money in the calculation of their final pension benefit. Problem is two-fold here. Nobody wants to touch police and fire (heroes), and when angry people want to stir up more angry people, they usually quote police/fire pension amounts as an example of what a "typical" government pension is like.
As to our great pay, Tom, is $36 per hour too much for a licensed party chief? Compared to Local 12? And is $48k really too much for a teacher? Consider the impact teachers have on our future generation and explain how a hedge fund manager could possibly be of greater value. Spoiler alert - my mother and father were both teachers - 30+ years each, and we didn't eat much fillet mignon, as I recall. Thanks for a lively discussion, but let's move on.
JK

Well I don't know currant local 12 rates, but I would bet private non union surveyor and CE pay is at or less than public. And the last salary comparisons in CE mag said the same.

Right now teachers are hogtied by stupid govt regs, but CA has nearly the highest per student cost and near the lowest in testing, where Ut is the opposite.

Yea, time to end this.