California Surveyors Forums

from the CalTrans website above the links for the various chapters of their Safety Manual:

"Please be aware that some chapters are large and may take considerable time to download depending upon your Internet connection."

All kidding aside, working in the CalTrans R/W is highly hazardous and the trucks really are a necessity on divided freeways.

My opinion: Using a robot for a one-man crew is a lot of work and not at all a money/time saver. I would even say that it can be a detriment to the quality of the survey. But, a robot with a two-man crew, that is an entirely different story. I bet a good crew could almost double their productivity with a robot.

I wish I had one, but can't afford it. If I had one, I'd be cautious about where to use it with a one man crew. If it's on a flat property without a lot of foliage and trees and it's generally away from a well traveled road, then yes. I would be very concerned if it was set up close or in a road without a person to guard it. I think using it with a two man crew (like for construction staking) might be less cost effective, thus defeating the purpose of having it. In my opinion, if you are not going to use it with a one man crew, it's not worth the high cost of the gun.

David Anaya wrote:That is garbage. When i started, the FCG (F#@$ CAD Guy) never wanted to show me anything on LDD because of this reasoning and other elements i will not get in to here. I knew autocad but not to the point where i could pick up things as quickly as i wanted to because of this fear; or he would say he showed me something which was a lie and go to my boss and state he doesnt get it. This is foolish i went to this line of work to learn and become a professional. I worked my a$$ off and got educated to get where i am now. I feel someone like me where I want to round off my knowledge would stunt my development if i didnt continue to learn from more experienced LS's and PC's.

Mr. Anaya, You may call it garbage, but I know it to be fact.
1. Green rookie joins my crew.
2. I teach rookie all I can.
3. Rookie becomes surveyor
4. Surveyor obtains License
5. I get laid off
6. New LS takes my old position, using skills I taught him (less$)

I don't regret teaching him. He turned out to be a pretty good surveyor. I believe in the teaching and mentoring process, it's the right thing to do, that's how I learned. Unfortunately, it cost me my job

When things get slow companies call in "experts" to help them keep their company profitable.
First thing these experts look at is long term employees, they usually are pulling bigger paychecks, more vacation. So if there is a younger employee there working under the senior employee the senior employee becomes a target for the cost cutters.

I have a motorized Leica TCRP1203+ but no robotic. We have a two person crew, me and my subordinate employee who makes more than me (DPA just told us to shut up about that already) but it is good being the Chief so Mama will just have to get used to having less dollars 'cause I ain't going anywhere. We have one truck. I see those Caltrans crews out there with multiple trucks (some ridiculously huge, an F450 for a Surveyor?) but frankly they can have that job. I don't begrudge them spending the dollars to do the job safely and correctly. Caltrans does quality work and we should quit trying to eliminate yet more good jobs which ultimately benefit the local economy. Surveyors are inveterate cost cutting cheap skates it seems to me. The 1/2" rebar with plastic cap is a joke in my opinion. We set real monuments!

Mojavegreen wrote:I have been using a robotic instrument for close to 10 years. I have been using more and more as a one man unit for topos. Heavy construction I like to have a second guy but sometimes that isn't always possible so staking just goes a little slower. The one place I worked at would always have a chainman calling in sick so you learn how to get work done by yourself. His loss.

I was at a survey supply store one time when a Caltrans crew rolled in to pick up a new instrument. When I asked them what happened they said the other one blew over and was in the shop to get fixed. I asked them why they are picking up a new one they said the state doesn't have money to fix it but they have credit to buy a new one. Do you think they learned their lesson. Did anyone get fired...no. As taxpayers we will just have to pay.

Last week I was coming back from a job outside of Santa Maria. I saw a minimum of 10 Caltrans trucks on both sides of the 101. 2 S6's setting in the center median 1000' from each other. Field crews doing topo on both sides of the freeway. One holding the rod...one holding the data collector...another doing notes...another with a machete and the last guy watching traffic. Money well spent. How much do you think that cost for that topo. If it was a private company doing the topo it would just be 2 (2) man crew out there doing the work. Just my 0.04 cents

Hey maybe they did everything right yet it blew over. I had a receiver go over because I didn't know the wind would pick up to 30mph+ on that hilltop. I got some CMU blocks at Homedepot (cheap) and that never happened again.

Besides I know of a local mid-sized PRIVATE all-survey firm that had a chief loose an S6 like that down in Vacaville and he didn't get fired because he is a good employee. Accidents happen; if you fire someone everytime some accident happens they never can have the chance to learn. I cost a PRIVATE-sector boss some thousands on a simple mistake a few years in (1980s) and he didn't fire me because he regarded it to be a learning experience that he paid for so why fire the newly educated employee?

put a 20 pound bean bag on two of the feet of the legs when the shooter is set up. Dave Wooley turned me on to the supplier. They are used to steady camera tripods in the film industry. I carry 6 of them (or is it eight). Two bags per set up. They add a certain confidence level when walking away from gun or the glass. They cost about 20 to 50 bucks each, I can't remember, but worth every dollar.

As to all the comments regarding the amount of trucks and crew members on a government crew that work in the street, sure why not. I guess it makes sense. It is dangerous in the roadway, or even close to it. The more color, flashing lights, trucks, the better.

Yesterday I put in 70 mag nails solo robotically down the Esplanade in Redondo Beach for a crown line on this existing ac road. Relatively sleepy, but there were some cars. Right along the beach and the Pacific Ocean. The surf was expecially good, at least head high. Pretty day.

Anyway, 50 foot stations with grades to finish surface,about 3500 linear feet. I had control already(although I had to find it again) and the grade sheets marked up and calcd. Had three setups. Started the work at 8 am finished at 2 pm with a few breaks for a sandwich, tobacco and coffee. Up and down, up and down, then back to the truck and shooter. Billed $1600 contract.

With a chainman I could have probably saved at least two hours, maybe three, and it would have been a lot easier on me cause the chainman is going up and down while I stand next to him with the pole and the clipboard and the shooter is down there by the truck 600 feet away.

Averaged about 10 nails per hour after all was said and done, but i wasn't in a hurry either. The crown line was not on the centerline of the road, It was kattywhampus to it. Lost time waiting for cars to clear so I could enter the lane. With two guys I would have doubled my production.

Dave...Caltrans survey crews know better. They are out there on the freeways all the time.

I plan for the worst...hope for the best.

As for robotic instruments every place I worked for would complain about how the robotic instruments would lose lock and it was just to slow to work with. I would do topos with it and be twice as fast as the 2 best party chiefs they had. I could go back to a regular instrument by why when the technology is progressively getting faster. Got to stay with the times. Just my 0.02 cents

TIB...you got laid off because you weren't doing the job that was necessary. It is obvious that the company was looking already to lay you off. I have been in the business way to long and heard that excuse way to much.

Mojavegreen wrote:Dave...Caltrans survey crews know better. They are out there on the freeways all the time.

I plan for the worst...hope for the best.

As for robotic instruments every place I worked for would complain about how the robotic instruments would lose lock and it was just to slow to work with. I would do topos with it and be twice as fast as the 2 best party chiefs they had. I could go back to a regular instrument by why when the technology is progressively getting faster. Got to stay with the times. Just my 0.02 cents

TIB...you got laid off because you weren't doing the job that was necessary. It is obvious that the company was looking already to lay you off. I have been in the business way to long and heard that excuse way to much.

So you think it is unusual that a company would choose to lay off the higher paid of 2 employees when there's room for just one. Really? (Check above posts) How long have you been in business? (8601 is pretty recent #, can't be that long) Cutting costs was the companies excuse, not mine. I got laid off because i DID do what was necessary,-teach surveying to the younger surveyor. as one should. You did guess right about one thing, though. They were already looking to lay me off, just as soon as they could find somebody to sign the maps, for less . I'm not too upset or offended over your accusation of poor job performance after considering the source. You don't know any better. You'll learn

comming a while back on this thread.

I guess disagreement is welcome on this forum. At least as far as I am concerned. Being exposed to differing views helps me learn, maybe even help me not get into trouble.

I do try not to get "personal". I know I have my limitations, try to stay humble best I can.

Anyway, as a suggestion, it might pay dividends to some of the contributors to this forum, to not get too "personal". Maybe I am missing something or misreading, but I don't like what I see going on. Too bad for me.

Picky, Picky. BWTFDIK.

I posted a new thread titled "Professionalism" before reading Bruce's post just above. I don't always agree 100% with Bruce, but most of the time. This time I am in complete agreement.

As for those guys in big orange trucks - I saw one of their crews years ago in San Diego that had a half dozen trucks, 3 T-2002 instruments, and must have been more than a dozen people on one project! Sounds bad doesn't it?

The instruments were on their first set-ups and ready to go before sunrise. At first light, the rod-men were literally running from topo point to topo point, and the instruments leapfrogged as soon as their area was complete. In a short time (2 to 3 hours)they collected very accurate edge of concrete pavement data points from highway 56 through the entire 5-805 interchange. This was done during the lowest volume traffic possible to minimize impacts to the traveling public and reduce safety risk to the staff. They had lots of signs out, but no lane closures. Shadow vehicles were used to both watch/warn traffic and protect the guys on foot. It has been since 1992 that Caltrans has lost a surveyor on the job. I hope he was the last.

As for the guys standing by the robotics, who pays for yours when it is stolen? Your insurance company? Who checks your work if you are solo? Again, E & O is there to save the day? State agencies are "self-insured" - that is, they can't afford to have equipment go missing or bust grades and buy 500 feet of curb, or have design data be bad and thus necessitate a major CCO. Are they all All-Stars? Of course not, but many are, and they are continuously striving for improvement. Get to know some... Invite them to attend a CLSA meeting with you... Find out that we are all Land Surveyors first, and we need to stick together, no matter who we work for...

TIB and all on this forum I do apologize if my comments were to personal. I work hard to train my employees and watch them move ahead. I think it is great to watch someone get their license even if it threats my employment. Then so be it. Coming on this forum and complaining about it just turn me the wrong way. For that I apologize.

As for robotic equipment I understand that my equipment can get stolen at anytime. That is why I have insurance and if it get stolen then I have to pay the price.

Rob...Caltrans does a good job on the there work. I am not saying that. I just see things from a private firms perspective.

We were chiseling out a 3/4" pipe in a paved county road in rural Humboldt County last week. We take turns. My subordinate employee was watching when he yells, "CAR!" So I get out of the road, the car goes by. I start to walk back out there quickly and he yells twice as loud "CAR!" (another car goes by) Then he chews me out for the dangerous move. I said, "Sorry about that, it was an ICM!" "ICM? What's that?" "Impatient Chief Maneuver."

In this tough economy, there is some natural tendancy to blame others or find the villian in our counterparts as a means to reconcile our frustration.

Rise above that... We can't always do the right thing - but we can try...

The most important things in our day to day life are family and safety. I consider CLSA members and Land Surveyors my family. (Of course everyone has a weird uncle or goofy nephew... You know who you are...) Do what you need to do to make it home at the end of the day...

If you are having trouble sleeping, try this:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/oppd/proj_book/HCBP_052810.pdf

If anyone wants to reach me directly, feel free - Rob_LS at Comcast.net

totally agree