California Surveyors Forums

Do you think Mr. Bundy is a hero? Maybe he should bunk with Snowden at the HERO HOTEL in Russia. Perhaps Mr. Bundy should meet Wesley Snipes and they can discuss what happens when there is a conscience uncoupling between a taxpayer and their government. If memory serves, I recall Mr Snipes did prison time for his lapse in recognizing the federal government.

While on the subject of the rule of law and standing up for what is right.... Everyone of those folks who showed up brandishing weapons could be in a lot of trouble and face lots of charges.... it is against the law to assault police officers...when you do it with a deadly weapon it is a felony....assuming a sniper position and aiming your rifle at a law enforcement officer is assault with a deadly weapon.... serious jailtime...

http://youtu.be/8Gu2ouJNmXc

There seems to be a refusal to actually read and think about the statement:

. . .dispose of the federal lands, turn them over to the states and the citizens, . . .

Why is that......because you know it is not true?

One should think that the BLM land managers can come to the decision that the Public Land is not being used in the best way with a rancher running 900 head of cows and not paying a dime for doing so. So, why not make a decision that the land would be better off without the non-paying cows and look at alternatives for land use?

The simple fact that the rancher cannot accept the fact that the land is Public Land, but is State land, as he states......should make you wonder about the legality of land ownership. Something that land surveyors are usually interested in!

Mr. Bundy and his family followed all the rules for ~100 years up until the fees were increased in ~1993. Prior to 1993 there were 53 cattle ranches in that area, Mr Bundy is the only one left, I wonder why that happened?
Could it be the result of a cholera outbreak, hoof and mouth disease or maybe Feds forcing them out of business.

A president was set in the 1800's where your ranch buildings were on land you had title to, you were allowed grazing rights over acreage under territorial ownership becoming State ownership then taken over by the Feds. The reason given by the Feds to take over undeeded lands was to consolidate rules and have one agency oversee these lands, but only the Feds know the real reason. Many ranches crossed State boundaries which created some issues.

What I have seen since the Feds took over all open land is a systematic restriction of public use. In our local deserts it was to save the flora, fauna and animals living there from the long term destruction caused by motorized vehicles. I guess that doesn't apply to solar farms that mass grade thousands of acres and KILL EVERY living thing in that area.

About 15-20 years ago diane feinstein got the feds to buy many townships in the eastern California desert that had been given to the railroads as a cravat to getting them to build a RR. The feds paid many times market value for this land. This land in the area of Death Valley is now a wilderness area only the Feds can operate motor vehicles in so it is essentially off limits to the general public, why, well there is a reason it's called DEATH Valley. As a side note I should mention that the RR was in deep financial trouble at the time and the sale of these lands bailed them out.

Some people need to quit sipping the kool aid and start questioning the govt stamping all over our Constitution and Bill of Rights. As it is now you can't find the difference between the Rs and Ds with a electron microscope. The elected represent the money that keeps them elected not the voters.

As for having to pay taxes; check out Dave Champion, ex cop, now radio and TV commentator residing in Pahrump, NV. He hasn't paid taxes in decades, represents himself in the IRS "hearings" and it all has to do with how you handle the very first actions of the IRS in the hearing.

The law is a interesting thing. Many times normal definitions of words are redefined specifically for that law and referenced as such. Be very careful of the footnote "as defined in section ..........."

How many people on here believe the ag inspectors at the CA border stations have the legal right to stop private citizens and inspect their private vehicle if they are not engaged in a commercial ag business?

Back in the late 1960s the Calif Div of Highways was renamed CalTrans so that all moneys fed into the DMV could be used for any form of transportation including trains, buses, bikes and walking paths. CalTrans then proceeded to build bus only lanes in the middle of I-10 east of Los Angeles (now full car pool lanes that 2 years ago became toll lanes). From the east the buses entered the fwy near the Rio Hondo river and exited at Mission Blvd. An existing RR track ran down the middle of the fwy on which a single train with 3-4 flat cars of riprap went from LA to El Monte in the AM and returned in the PM to keep the RoW with the RR. In order to build the bus lanes someone determined the existing RR tracks, in very poor condition, would have to be moved 2 feet to more center them between the bus lanes. This required SPRR approval. SP approved under the conditions that the existing spur grade track be replaced with main line track and a viaduct (very expensive bridge) be built along the Rio Hondo channel from the I-10 north to the existing SP mainline track that ~ parallels the fwy. What wasn't broadcast very loud was the fact that the SPRR was under federal mandate to replace their old main line track into LA and this spur line was their only other access in and out of LA. Within 5 years SPRR would have had to install this track and viaduct at their own expense but thanks to The CA govt we taxpayers got to pay for it instead.
To rub salt into a open wound if you now want to use these lanes and the ones on the 110 that we taxpayers paid to build you need a transponder and get to pay a use fee and if you don't meet a minimum monthly toll fee there is a monthly "account" fee you get to pay.

Dave Champion, ex cop, now radio and TV commentator residing in Pahrump, NV. He hasn't paid taxes in decades

The fact that he hasn't paid taxes in decades doesn't mean that he won't eventually pay them. Champion was named in a 2011 complaint by DOJ alleging a laundry list of violations and a back-tax bill of $800k. I don't know the status of the case, but it looks to me like he's in deep do-do.

He has been in IRS hearings a couple of times in the last 2 years.
In one they refused to accept his briefs or evidence I forget what he called it.
The next time he must have been under a no talk order as he quit mentioning the case on his show and didn't promote his book.
Now he is mentioning tax stuff again and promoting his book.
Oh it will be ongoing until he dies. The govt will spend thousands to collect pennies.
It is interesting that of all the times he has had to appear at these hearings, they call it a court but it isn't, they have yet to jail him or collect any money.

The IRS prefers going after the little guys. The big guys (inc's) have tax lawyers that know the code better than the IRS and the IRS ends up settling for pennies or dimes on the dollar, where when they go after you and I they collect 200 - 300 pennies on the dollar and that looks better on their stat sheets. They don't collect as much but they look better on cases won and amounts collected over the actual tax.

and somebody cares?

HOW ABOUT YOUR BRO THE WELFARE COWBOY, NOW? STILL A BIG FAN?

I have to say, I've really enjoyed this thread. Land rights issues, with a little politics sprinkled in! Two things people get very passionate about! I understand the argument on both sides.

Has anyone read the report that the clip used was edited to make him sound racist. Just like what happened to that fellow in Florida.

Here is one report that says editing was used to make his remarks racist.

Check for your self.

Just saying, DON'T BELIEVE THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA.

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/04/25/media-ma ... -a-racist/

Mr. Johnson. Do you believe he is a racist or not? Just want to make sure where you stand. Personally, he sounds like a guy who did not honor his lease agreement for grazing on public lands and threatened the feds with use of deadly force, while putting their women first for a front line defense for their make shift militia. Now that's a patriotic show of honor and bravery. Stealing from the public, like a "Liberal Welfare Recipient", never looked so conservative. I also think he is a bit delusional by not recognizing the US government. Oh, ya, I almost forgot he is also a opinionated racist. Wait...Hannity, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz why are you guys running away so fast?

One needs context for the following words?
"I don't recognized the federal government"
And
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro"

What followed each of these sets of words was pure moronic babble and not worth the energy it took the man to make such utterances.

There are 2 sides to the man's arguments, the right side and the wrong side.

One does not need to eat the entire egg to know that it is raw, just one bite will do.....
Not even Hannity is standing with this man any more...

JasonCamit wrote:Mr. Johnson. Do you believe he is a racist or not? Just want to make sure where you stand. Personally, he sounds like a guy who did not honor his lease agreement for grazing on public lands and threatened the feds with use of deadly force, while putting their women first for a front line defense for their make shift militia. Now that's a patriotic show of honor and bravery. Stealing from the public, like a "Liberal Welfare Recipient", never looked so conservative. I also think he is a bit delusional by not recognizing the US government. Oh, ya, I almost forgot he is also a opinionated racist. Wait...Hannity, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz why are you guys running away so fast?

I haven't made up my mind yet. What I was pointing is the manipulation of the truth by the media and telling others not to swallow what is being spoon fed and finding out for your self.

The "manipulation of the truth" by Bundy himself is of the most concern.

I generally tend to support the underdog. One of my favorite cartoons as a kid.

I like Thomas Jefferson. His ideas, his guts. He was a slave owner. Because I like Thomas Jefferson does not make me a racist.

I brought this topic up because it is centered around land use rights, something land surveyors might take interest in.

So, to continue with that theme, I present the following:

http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/19/f ... -ranchers/

Interesting article Clark. Clearly coming from a fair and unbiased publication!? I will be awaiting the follow-up story to how this unfolds by the same publication and its author "Clyde". But I will not expect it anytime soon, since they will be running in the opposite direction along side all other front runners that WERE supporting this loon, but now will let him lay in his series of poor decisions. Lets be clear, this is all political and the land use issue is simply a side note.

I agree with Stephen. The media will cut and paste to get the result they want. CBS had to put explosives in the gas tanks of side tank Chevy trucks to "prove" that side tanks on side impact will explode. Gas tanks don't explode, they ignite and burn. Mythbusters tried, even with tracer bullets.

I have always listened to both sides and figured the truth was somewhere in-between. To dismiss a person's rights because of their racial or religious views is biased.

As for negros being better or worse off today - probably a little better. But, according to Thomas Sowell the % of unemployed negros was lower before minimum wage was enacted. When you have 3rd and 4th generation welfare families you have a problem that welfare is not curing.

That judge found that the BLM was illegally acting against a rancher but apparently none of the BLM personnel involved suffered any reprimands or firings.

Decades ago I thought most of what the govt stated had a lot of truth in it. No more, they are the worst at manipulating tests to get the results they want and, as a lawyer in training told me "there are ways of avoiding the truth" and most politicians are lawyers.

[quote="land butcher"]I have always listened to both sides and figured the truth was somewhere in-between. To dismiss a person's rights because of their racial or religious views is biased. QUOTE]

There is no in-between to the racial views in what this guy said, cut and paste, voice dubbed or whatever you will try to argue next, Land Butcher! There is tolerance and there is racist, which one are you? Do you believe this guy is racists or not? You seem to have strong opinions on this forum, speak out now. Lets hear you roar. I have no issue with challenging governments of any country and tend to believe that most politicians are lawyers and can argue any point they feel benefits them (left or right). I do not know why you threw religion in this conversation.

I have no tolerance for racists views, being victim of them most of my childhood, so forgive my passion, but to stick up for this guy really tells me what side of the street you walk on.

Fair.
Every expression of every sort, comes from a "point of view".
I posted to bring up the "land use" element, which after following the Hage family issue for a few years just struck me as interesting.

I DO NOT SEE ANY LAND USE ISSUE IN ANY OF THIS CRAP. I see one rancher who is belly aching about the results he caused himself by breaching his agreement with the BLM. I see the estate of another rancher belly aching because they somehow think that they are special and do not have to properly execute documents in order to maintain their rights as they are entitled under the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934.

So where is the beef

Has the Hage case been appealed yet and is there an appeal court decision? While the lower court's ruling is educational, I would only form an opinion on an appeal court decision.

How many people on here believe the ag inspectors at the CA border stations have the legal right to stop private citizens and inspect their private vehicle if they are not engaged in a commercial ag business?

At least one:

California Food and Agricultural Code, Section 5344 (a):

It is unlawful for the operator of any vehicle to fail to
stop the vehicle at an inspection station or to willfully avoid an
inspection station. It is also unlawful for the operator to fail to
stop either upon demand of a clearly identified plant quarantine
officer or upon demand of an officer of the California Highway
Patrol, when the officer orders the operator to stop for the purpose
of determining whether any quarantine which is established pursuant
to any provision of this division is being violated.
(b) Notwithstanding Section 5309, a violation of this section is a
misdemeanor and grounds for the vehicle to be stopped for
inspection.

I'm sorry, I thought that since land, what it might comprise and how it might be used, may be of interest to the land surveying community. Stupid me.

I thought maybe there could be an opportunity for some of us to learn something. Stupid me.

Mr. Ince: when your SF lawyer neighbor's dog drops a deuce in your yard and you throw it over the fence into his yard, and then he sues you for vandalism and prescriptive rights for his dog to take dumps in your yard, that is the world you are creating within your belief system. Sit back, watch and enjoy. You are in SF, you are in a bubble.

Mr. Keithwill, are BLM surveyors really the government thugs as viewed by common people throughout the history of this country's western expansion? Did Bonanza have it all wrong?

I don't know if this rancher Bundy is a hero, but it seems that he believes in what he is doing. What interests me are the issues concerning land use (Mr. Ince's "crap")

Here is what I read a year ago about the Hage situation:

http://blog.pacificlegal.org/2013/break ... ty-rights/

Mr. Keithwill, are BLM surveyors really the government thugs as viewed by common people throughout the history of this country's western expansion? Did Bonanza have it all wrong?

Where did this come from?

BLM surveyors do not carry guns, except in Alaska and they carry big ones!

None of the ranchers claims are true about the land being State Land and all the rest of the claims that he has made.

The story is....his refusal to pay the lease money on his cows grazing on the Public Land! End of story.

Apparently, there is going to be a big splash in Texas now about BLM claiming land? I do not know the facts but assume that according to court decisions and water rights, the BLM can claim certain lands by water movement? Other than that, I have no idea.

I do know that lawyers in the Department of Interior have made decisions that BLM surveyor have to abide by, and in my opinion, were clearly wrong. Usually Indian boundaries.

Somebody mentioned the 107th Meridian, and that was clearly a wrong decision....in my opinion of course. They moved a monumented line to where it was supposed to be!

It is my understanding there is NO BLM in Texas, due to the fact that Texas was an independent nation prior to being a state. All federal lands within Texas were acquired from the State of Texas. This is one of the reasons Texas has an independent layout of the public lands system, i.e. the sections are 2 miles square.