California Surveyors Forums

I know my online behavior is affected by having my real name down below.

Mike, when did you get to be so Mike-like? ;-)

Clarification on the public officer exemption:

When a public officer conducts a field survey and encounters an 8762 trigger, they are not exempt from preparing and submitting a map. They are only exempt from the requirement to have it filed in the Recorder's office. They are still required to prepare a map that complies with the technical requirements of a record of survey in every other respect and then to submit it to the County Surveyor for filing in the CS Miscellaneous Records.

I'm not quite sure how that relieves the public officer of any responsibility other than filing fees.


Dave,

Do you have a statutory reference that limits this class of public officer to the County Surveyor?

It has always been my understanding that any State, County, or City employee who is authorized both by license and by job position to perform surveys on behalf of the employing agency would be a public officer for purposes of 8765.

Anonymous? Unfortunately some of us have to remain that way due to past and possible future repercussions from our employers, fellow employees, and even the "board". That's right, all of the above are "human", subject to the same frailties of human nature.
As for the board, they no doubt intend to be impartial, but again, human nature is another story.

With MP, it's always been damn the torpedos, full speed ahead. Bottom line he does not want to see the profession sunk. Cudos to his no longer criticizing fellow land surveyors in public mapping documents, he has come a long way and he benefits all of us.

Btw, regarding his various comments on the bias towards the private sector surveyors, they have merit. Has anyone ever found one single action against a licensed public employee ?

D Wooley's "troubling" comment is right on, as has been E Page and others on other posts, when they have commented on borpelsg' s inconsistency in applying the written rules of the game. Why is it inconceivable that they may tiptoe around issuing citations to surveyors who work for large firms that can more easily afford legal counsel. How many "lone-operator" surveyors are the subject of investigations, citations, versus those who are from well-known firms with legal power? At least all the people who have contacted me for input in past years on their being investigated were lone-operators. This is a hypothesis as it is difficult to prove without having access to the employment info of the various persons investigated/cited.

Monthly professional liability insurance premiums that MP and others in the private sector must pay is not part of the public employee's world, it is part and parcel of the private sector land surveyors' everyday burden.

Evan, Mike made the public officer contention.

If you refer to checking fees, more than a decade ago our Chief Counsel persuaded the Tulare County Counsel that not only do we not have to pay the fees, we are prohibited by statute to pay a fee for an official service even if we want to. So far no County Surveyor has required fees from us since I have worked at fire. Parks used to pay the fees because it wasn't aware that we aren't supposed to.

Sorry, other Dave (Woolley), post at 01/18/at 13:05.

Every time my kids complain "that's not fair" I always tell them that life isn't fair, and the sooner they accept that, the sooner they can move on. Mike, it looks to me like you are dealing with two different issues and I'm really not sure where you're going with this. The first issue you state is the impact that board actions have on private surveyors, and the second issue is that the public sector surveyors are not being treated with the same heavy-handedness. So, like my kids, are you saying "if I'm going to get in trouble, then so-and-so needs to get in trouble," or are you saying that the laws need to be changed to ease up on the regulations you feel are not serving the purpose of public protection? If it's the latter, then how about some productive discussion on what you would change in the PLS Act rather than the constant "no fair" argument.

Evan,

California Government Code § 24000

24000. The officers of a county are:
(a) A district attorney.
(b) A sheriff.
(c) A county clerk.
(d) A controller.
(e) An auditor, who shall be ex officio controller.
(f) A treasurer.
(g) A recorder.
(h) A license collector.
(i) A tax collector, who shall be ex officio license collector.
(j) An assessor.
(k) A superintendent of schools.
(l) A public administrator.
(m) A coroner.
(n) A surveyor. [although not in this section of the Gov. Code the CS is also an ex officio Recorder]
(o) Members of the board of supervisors.
(p) A county veterinarian.
(q) A fish and game warden.
(r) A county librarian.
(s) A county health officer.
(t) An administrative officer.
(u) A director of finance.
(v) A road commissioner.
(w) A public guardian.
(x) Such other officers as are provided by law.

In my earlier post I recalled from memory there were 26 in total, nope 23. So much for my memory.

DWoolley

Good one to Dave Karoly.

Too many Daves and too many Knights.

What I am saying is we are at a critical crossroad with the profession and the Board has been applying extraordinary pressure on private sector firms, putting them out of business or placing them in financial ruin because a disgruntled client complained. This is not an assertion, it is a fact. I know 4 firms that have spent nearly half a million dollars - yes that is correct - half a million dollars defending themselves against small business disputes. The Board has undoubtedly spent half of that again. In several of these instances, the surveyors had already been to civil court where they were awarded their fees and they prevailed in their lawsuits. The Board has still pursued these even though the lawsuits are legally settled.

Conservatively, in 5 complaints, more than $600,000 has been spent pursuing and defending such complaints.

What I am trying to do is to generate a dialogue and if people are fearful about speaking up and identifying themselves, my point has been proven.

Dave Woolley,

Government Code section 27556 confers the title of ex officio deputy County Recorder on the CS for purposes stated in that section.

I'm not sure that B&P section 8765 (a) limits the exemption to just County Surveyors. It states "... public officer in his or her official capacity ..."
I can see that as a State or municipal public officer. As to the Feds, state statutes do have limits ...

dedkad, I have made a number of suggestions over the years and I have submitted them to CLSA and the Central Office but they have been thrown out. I have sent registered mail, certified mail, and FEDEX packages and no one will accept them.

I am raising the bar again in the hopes that with a new direction for the association, and a fresh approach, we can get somewhere.

I have offered numerous times to serve and assist. After years and years and years of problems on the forum and questions about research, I created the free webpage http://www.tiepoints.com I offered to work, site, participate in, on and around, as a member of a records committee, all to no avail.

I have offered to sit, assist, be a member of (like I used to do) on the conference committee. As you know, I am sure I expressed my concerns here, and elsewhere with CLSA's 50th anniversary and the need for a positive public relations campaign in connection with the conference.

Take a look at where those issues are.

I am not afraid to work and I never have been. I have been rowing hard, as a member of CLSA for 36 years.

Where are we going and what are we doing? These are my questions.

Michael,

Your motives are commendable. I always strove to have "gruntled" clients when I was in private practice. ;-) It isn't always so.

It is interesting that you bring up the award of costs and, perhaps, sanctions after prevailing in civil suits. For regulatory enforcement, there not only is no time limitation for bringing a case, but the system is not designed for such recovery. Again, an action would have to be brought within the courts of equity.

To be an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart - in any profession. The concurrent dialogue about the future of our profession has a different focus, but this one is no less important.

Warren,

I added that County Surveyor is an ex officio Recorder to the post immediately after posting it. We're on the same page.

Evan,

I don't think government employees with licensees are "public officers". I believe the public officers are part of the California constitution dating back to the olden days. I would welcome to be proven wrong.

DWoolley

As to comments, regarding public sector issues. I co-wrote the law 33 years ago regarding map checkers after unlicensed people told me how to survey:
"PLSA: 8726 . . .Land surveying defined Any department or agency of the state or any city, county, or city and county that has an
unregistered person in responsible charge of land surveying work on January 1, 1986, shall be exempt from the requirement that the person be licensed as a land surveyor until such time as the person currently in responsible charge is replaced.
The review, approval, or examination by a governmental entity of documents prepared or performed pursuant to this section shall be done by, or under the direct supervision of, a person authorized to practice land surveying. "

I co-wrote SB-2 thirty years ago when surveying was taken away from Civil Engineers and when we created business reciprocity.

I have walked the hard floors of the state house where I successfully lobbied against important legislation that was going to harm the profession. I defeated an important bill by lobbying with a lot of politicians I knew. As an aside, CLSA members used to do that years ago. As to why it stopped, anyone who has been following things over the last year should be able to figure out why that stopped.

I wrote the Amicus brief for CLSA when we got involved the most important published decision on Lot Line Adjustments after the City of San Diego violated the law. See the attached article. I used to write a lot of articles for CLSA until my letters and articles were no longer considered. (Hint: it was when I started asking financial questions).

When I, and other surveyors were jerked around in San Diego, I went to the Grand Jury and they agreed with me and I got that fixed. See the attached.

I have fought long and hard to advance the best interests of the profession and have resorted to these more strenuous endeavors when I was forced to.

When the mayor of San Diego started molesting young women, I removed him from office. I did this before in 1991 when I encountered corruption in San Diego. I am not a big fan of corruption as should be evident.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/A ... 43201.html

I am not afraid to speak my mind and I was raised to always do the right thing. I am not one to sit on my hands and whine. The only reason I have been unable to work on these issues over the last 20 years should be evident to anyone who is following the bouncing ball.

I am one of the business owners the Board went after. I am posting anonymously because I am afraid of retribution from the licensing board. None of you would believe what I went through and how much it cost me. Whenever I complained about how things were going, they doubled down on me. There is a problem here. Mr. Evan Page is correct.

Kevin, that sounds pretty bad. Would you consider sending me a private message?

MP, congrats on continuing to work for us, most of us appreciate this. But as to the scumbag molester mayor filner; you "removed him from office"? The council voted on that decision to send him packing, didn't they? :)

Mike-

This is an off-the-wall question...

What font did you use in your book?

-Dave

desert tortoise, no, actually he quit after we organized 1400 people and gathered 40,000 signatures in one week.

My point is, when you need to do the right thing you do it.

If you are interested:

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... backstory/

.

MP, you are right on. I see lots of divisiveness between the Public and Private Survey sectors now. Perhaps the PLSA and our Board fuel this, but definitely the uncertain economy in California plays a role against us private business owners. What’s good for the Goose is not always good for the gander, (us private surveyors). Being a private survey business owner for over 30 years in SoCal like I have is very rare these days. I worry every day about a vindictive lawsuit shutting us down anytime for no reason at all. Myself and others (see CEAC Guide) believe that PLSA recognizes that the California LS is a Professional Practitioner and it should allow great but equal flexibility in the performance of surveys and preparation of maps. The PLSA should allow use of good professional practices without being unduly restrictive equally on both public and private practitioners. I can provide many examples where California Licensed Surveyors working for County, State, BLM or Caltrans take months and even many years to make public (file or record) their monuments or Plats. They blame delays on budgets, yet if a private guy like me is tardy and blames economy or hardships the Board turns an Accusation over to the Attorney Generals office to steamroll my career. I believe our State Board has a Professional Obligation to have a Peer to Peer meeting with all surveyors before turning victimless accusations over to the Attorney Generals Office to destroy a Surveyors dreams, business and bank account trying to defend himself. Maybe our State CLSA should have our backs and help us out?

Mr. Ehe:

I take exception to failure to file a record of survey being labeled as a "victimless" accusation/crime.

There may not be a felony- however, there are several real victims. Namely, the professionals that honor their commitments to the public, the profession and the honest competing firms - which file their maps regardless of budget considerations or "hardships". I have been hired by retired professionals to complete and file their honestly overlooked surveys - to honor their professional commitments. Failure to file records of survey in private practice, besides the inadvertent oversight, is dishonest business that puts pressure on honest business.

I have a few records of survey that have not filed within the statutory time lines. Each of those maps, without exception, have been drawn to 100% completion and I have a letter into each County Surveyor stating why the map has not filed. The County Surveyor knows the mapping limits and normally, has a copy on file. A surveyor working in the area will be made aware of the survey and can easily get a copy. Typically, the delay in filing is due to ongoing litigation or the settlement terms haven't been finalized.

Please refrain from calling failure to file a "victimless" accusation/crime. It's simply not true.

DWoolley

Olin Edmunson, that is my point. I have a drawer full of unanswered complaints. Most of them have to do with problems that have arisen in my practice. Unlike a lot of surveyors, I get involved when conflicts arise with public agencies (some one has to do this work). Again and not to paint a broad brush here, but there certainly is a cult of kinship at play.

Meanwhile hard working business owners do their best to navigate through the complex world of surveying, business, managing employees, bidding work, minimizing claims and exposure, paying insurance premiums, feeding families, finding work for the crews for next week and a host of other aspects of business, all the time trying our best to thwart illegal activities such as the one you identified.

Running a profitable survey company requires a number of critical skills, most of which every day people do not encounter or even understand. Moreover, many of us have a formal education in business and, when a question arises, someone investigating our activities tells us what is supposed to be in a contract, all operating under the guise of a technical expert. There is a problem here.

Olin Edmunson, that is my point. I have a drawer full of unanswered complaints. Most of them have to do with problems that have arisen in my practice. Unlike a lot of surveyors, I get involved when issues arise with public agencies (some one has to do this work). Again and not to paint a broad brush here, but there certainly is a cult of kinship at play.

Meanwhile hard working business owners do their best to navigate through the complex world of surveying, business, managing employees, bidding work, avoiding exposure, dealing with claims of every sort, finding work for the crews for next week and a host of other aspects of business, all the time trying our best to thwart illegal activities such as the one you identified. Running a survey company requires a number of critical skills, most of which every day people do not encounter or even understand. Moreover, many of us have a formal education in business and, when a question arises, someone investigating our activities tells us what is supposed to be in a contract, all operating under the guise of a technical expert.

Olin Edmunson, that is my point. I have a drawer full of unanswered complaints. Most of them have to do with problems that have arisen in my practice. Unlike a lot of surveyors, I get involved when conflicts arise with public agencies (some one has to do this work). Again and not to paint a broad brush here, but there certainly is a cult of kinship at play.

Meanwhile hard working business owners do their best to navigate through the complex world of surveying, business, managing employees, bidding work, minimizing claims and exposure, paying insurance premiums, feeding families, finding work for the crews for next week and a host of other aspects of business, all the time trying our best to thwart illegal activities such as the one you identified.

Running a profitable survey company requires a number of critical skills, most of which every day people do not encounter or even understand. Moreover, many of us have a formal education in business and, when a question arises, someone investigating our activities tells us what is supposed to be in a contract, all operating under the guise of a technical expert. There is a problem here.