California Surveyors Forums

I wholeheartedly agree, Bruce.

Choice One: Always straight up as the cartographers would do.

Choice Two: North arrow to left of page. (This has been the unwritten standard for years.)

However . . . because we are limited to a postage-stamp size canvas . . . north can go anywhere it wants. As Mr Frame rightly puts it, our clients interests are paramount.

Off the subject: I pray all Counties strive for "cost recovery" for reviewing Records of Surveys. Then the "Surveyor to Recorder" might have a chance and all these opinionated drafting techniques should evaporate (if the law were changed).

Yep, Crazy Phil again - Surveyor to Recorder

Gromatici wrote:...I get to decide how to orient the map that makes the most sense. If it's good enough for Caltrans, it's good enough for me!

Thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear that people are free to use their minds still.

Gromatici:

I have not seen your map. If it makes sense I suspect the County Surveyor wouldn't be making the noted exception this time. I can state a "south facing" north arrow - fun oxymoron noted - is not a Caltrans standard. I have seen plenty of Caltrans maps and also, I have created several, probably not as many as others. I have not noted any bottom left north arrows on the regular. Throughout the Caltrans' review process, by several icensed and qualified Caltrans employees, they never directed the contracting team to orient the north arrow towards the bottom of the sheet. Stating the obvious "Good enough for Caltrans is good enough for me" is misplaced.

Most anything sideways, goofy or backwards can always be rationalized. There are several studies that suggest people are actually susceptible to irrational behavior and can oftentimes be explained by various biases. Seeing Jim Frames 1982 Caltrans north arrow as a rationalization to make bottom facing north arrows acceptable, setting aside the pride in doing so, is a confirmation bias. The forum actually worked well for you to recieve the confirmation. You were not actually looking to have the standard presented - I suspect you were probably well aware of the standard. This is precisely why a map checker cannot let the simplest of things slide - it lowers the standard over time. Sure as the sun coming up in the east, the one exception will be pointed to as the example. I would offer suggested reading on biases, but it is unlikely to hit the mark if reading and following mapping standards are particularly or overly troublesome.

Lastly, pointing to a basic standard is hardly disparaging. It certainly is not intended to be personal. A land surveyor's work will be judged long after we are all gone. I am content to know the map is in the public record for all time and will be judged accordingly.

DWoolley

I don't work with Caltrans maps much to get a vibe on how often they do this, but the funny coincidence is I'm currently working off Skyline/84 area and the Caltrans record of survey map there (17 LLS 83 if my attachment works) has north pointing to the bottom right corner of the map.

Here is a CalTrans map with north pointing to the bottom right corner of the map.

Scott,

That is a great example of the stationing reading from left to right - and the North arrow falling where it is.

Warren,

Yes, and it was a pain in the --- to work with.

BTW, my Record of Survey north was 180° from that CalTrans map.

If it makes sense I suspect the County Surveyor wouldn't be making the noted exception this time.

Dave, I think you're missing the point, at least from my perspective, i.e. that the CS (let alone his map checker) has no authority to dictate the direction of the north arrow on a Record of Survey. Using terms like "I'll let it go this time" is a clear attempt to overstep his/her statutory purview, which is very deliberately limited in the law. The appropriate comment would have been along the lines of "I suggest that you consider reorienting the map so that north is up or to the left of the sheet in order to comport with common drafting practice." Instead, he chose to issue a veiled threat. In my view it is incumbent upon all licensees not to stand idly by while civil servants (or worse, their contracted stand-ins) attempt to exceed the limits of their charge.

And speaking of confirmation bias, I had a good chuckle at the one you displayed with the term "south-facing north arrow." A north arrow pointing at the bottom of the sheet is only south-facing if the top of sheet is north of the bottom of the sheet. Perhaps it's time to expand your horizons!

Scott DeLaMare:

That plan makes sense - following the time honored standard stationing increases from the south to the north or from the west to the east. For those that used to perform cross-sections, before data collectors, the stationing was started on the bottom of the sheet working toward the top of the sheet (upstation).

Also, the sheet had to be landscape to fit the profile and be harmonious with the plan set - not exactly the same as a boundary map/record of survey. Always cool to see a 1933 map. I have never grown tired of seeing old maps. Especially well hand drafted maps that show professional standards I readily recognize.

DWoolley

DWoolley wrote: I can state a "south facing" north arrow - fun oxymoron noted - is not a Caltrans standard.

DWoolley

Jim:

I caught the "south facing north arrow" when I wrote it. It was meant to be funny. I am glad you picked up on it for a laugh.

Yes, I agree, I may need to continue expand my horizons.

I am steadfast in challenging map checkers that cannot point to a standard. I don't mind suggestions, but have a low threshold for incorrect direction.

Do you think a County Surveyor (or surrogate) is out of line asking for correct spelling and proper grammar?

Best,

Dave Woolley

Do you think a County Surveyor (or surrogate) is out of line asking for correct spelling and proper grammar?

On the contrary, I think it's okay for a CS to ask for just about anything not contrary to law or the standard of practice. But I also feel fully empowered to decline any such requests not pertaining to legally mandated standards, and I often do. Like most, I have a mapping style that I've developed over decades, and when a CS's idea of desirable mapping detail conflicts with my own, in the realm of Records of Surveys mine win.

More than once I've invited a CS to propose wording for a CS note to address these conflicts, but I've only been taken up on it once.

P.S. Despite all of this, when laying out a Record of Survey I try to put north either up the sheet (best) or to the left (next best), because that's what I'm accustomed to. Offhand I can't think of a single instance in which I've done otherwise.

DWoolley wrote: ...

Do you think a County Surveyor (or surrogate) is out of line asking for correct spelling and proper grammar?

Best,

Dave Woolley

When a CS corrects spelling and grammer, they are trying to increase your reputation to everyone in the future that looks at your map. You should thank them.

Where's the North Star then? Asking for a friend!
Are we all that bored to have such a heavy discussion on the North Arrow?
Maybe I should post some recent comments on my R.O.S. and see what the peanut gallery thinks, lol.

PLS7393 wrote:Where's the North Star then? Asking for a friend!

Keith,
Just wondering if this is the same friend that says "Where is the moon?"

Regarding the north arrrow. I would like to repeat what I teach all new drafters/technicians : If you every do anything that is not expected, you are presuming all that follow you are competent and paying attention. Eliminating opportunities for errors by orienting the map as expected is a good thing the same way that driving on the same side of the road is a good idea.

Mikey Mueller, PLS

PS Dave's comment on confirmation bias I think it quite important. As humans we are all susceptible to our bad hardware (aka brains) which makes it quite hard to actually have an open mind that evaluates data correctly. There are quite a few wonderful articles and posts about how to identify and compensate for these at Less Wrong. For anyone who is a Harry Potter Fan the site also hosts a wonderful version of that world were Harry is not a idiot jock and correctly identifies Quidditch as a decent sport that was forced to make a spot for some King's idiot child and thus broke the game. Google "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality".

bruce hall wrote:north should be up or to the left, or real close.

So funny. I was taught drafting by a pre83 that north should be up or to the right. Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong, that the text should read from the bottom or right.

Another good "exception" - adopting the orientation of the maps you're retracing, assuming they're consistent.

Review comments about style - I'll accept one, but after that I often ignore or push back.

bruce hall wrote:north should be up or to the left, or real close.

This was as taught to me in every drafting class I took in college! Caltrans beats to it's own drum!

Records of Survey are not reviewed for technical correctness, although we grab that term out of our brain if we check a lot of maps, myself included. North arrow required, does not say pointing anywhere in particular.



George Marchenko

Another Caltrans exception:
Decades ago I requested to file a Record of Survey with metric measurements/dimensions (the client was amenable to it) and was turned down.
I guess I was ahead of my time.
Has anyone done a metric measure/dimension map?

I hear you, Mr. Lindell . . .

Got bored during a "slow spell" in 1995: First Place recipient NSPS Cadastral/Boundary map competition (505-M-3 Sonoma County).

Generally when I didn't get paid to do a Record of Survey I did it on my own terms: METRIC!

I don't know why CalTrans stopped with metrication! Probably because the dumbest tool in the tool box (an engineering contractor) screwed something up.

Have a good weekend . . .

Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder

hellsangle wrote:Got bored during a "slow spell" in 1995: First Place recipient NSPS Cadastral/Boundary map competition (505-M-3 Sonoma County).

Generally when I didn't get paid to do a Record of Survey I did it on my own terms: METRIC!

Sexagesimal? Did you buy metric tape measures for that survey? I bet Whitfield is still shaking his head over that one.....

Dave Lindell wrote:Another Caltrans exception:
Decades ago I requested to file a Record of Survey with metric measurements/dimensions (the client was amenable to it) and was turned down.
I guess I was ahead of my time.
Has anyone done a metric measure/dimension map?

Yes: as a contractor for CalTrans we did quite a few, usually double dimensions.
Topo, design, right of way, and control diagrams.
I don't recall and Record Maps or Corner Records, but in the large volume there were probably some.

It became second nature and fluid after a short while, and more Logical.

we were also required to measure in metric units so we bought rods, a pile of pocket tapes, and flipped the switch in our total stations.
that too became second nature rapidly.

I wish US Metrification had continued.

brilliant minds think alike, Peter. LOL

1) All this chitter chatter about map orientation, and what does it truly do for mapping? Some may think it is convenient to have most maps oriented in a similar direction, what we call standard practice, but there is no right or wrong, it's a style.

2) Remember the older maps that are South oriented? Again, a style.

3) Today I received red-line comments for a record of survey, and my North Arrow isn't big enough??? To clarify your question, the map is at 20 scale, and the N. Arrow measures 22', in cadd. Therefore the N. Arrow is over 1 inch in length. Why is any CS wasting time and making comments on the size of a N. Arrow? Does the CS not understanding their duties when it comes to map reviews. Is it lack of experience, or something else, but is clearly a style issue and non-technical. Here is a good example of what The Board needs to address when communicating with CS's across the state.

Now back to our Covid Programming!

Ahhhh, Keith . . .

Another reason for Surveyor to Recorder. Look how much frustration and time you spent on drafting techniques!

Take care, my friend . . . and stay healthy.

Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder

Wow Keith,

I've never had a County Surveyor question the size of my North arrow.

How good is your relationship with the County Surveyor?