Page 2 of 2
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:02 pm
by LS9200
Warren Smith wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:26 am
Nathan,
While Professional Engineers are registered under the provisions of the Professional Engineers Act, Board Rule 411 shows required elements of the seal. It states "Registered Professional Engineer" at the top, and the branch at the bottom - above "State of California". Registered Civil Engineer (RCE) is not listed among the protected titles in the PE Act sections 6704 and 6732.
A lot of definitions were amended in 1978.
Thank you for the insight, that is very helpful! Do you or anyone on this forum know of any documentation that expands up the changes in 1978? I am thinking that requesting these antiquated codes be changed would be much easier if one could simply say "Per the changes in 19XX, which is documented in XXXX we are requesting that the language in this code be changed to more accurately reflect the rules and responsibilities concerning land surveying and civil engineering". One could expand up on that further with more specifics.
I think pointing out that (RCE) is not even a protected title is a great feather in that cap.
- Nate
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:20 pm
by mpallamary
Yes indeed! Absent these corrections, more headaches will be created. I work in a number of cities and counties up and down the coast and the application and interpretation of these rules and laws is inconsistent and counterproductive.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:23 pm
by DWoolley
LS9200 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:24 am
Not to hijack the intent of this thread, but when did the term "registered civil engineer" get changed? My thought is that this term was used when civil engineers were authorized to practice land surveying (pre-82). Is there something anyone can cite that would substantiate this? I think it would be helpful in trying to construe the argument for updating many antiquated municipal codes that do not differential the difference between the licenses.
I recently recorded a Ten Minute Surveyor video on the history of licensure in California.
In my research for the video, I recall RCE was removed in 1984 and likely, became PE. I also believe this is the time additional disciplines were added i.e. traffic...
As Warren said, most of the title acts were revised or passed in the 1970s.
Fun fact, in 1968-69 the engineers proposed making all licensed land surveyors engineers by license with the expectation the surveyors would work within their area of competence and the land surveyors license would be abolished. This was a proposed compromise as the surveyors moved to disallow engineers to perform land surveying.
As I stated on another thread, the land surveyors are only now coming into their own as the engineers allowed to survey retire and die. It should have been a golden era for the land surveyors - my expectations were far to optimistic.
DWoolley
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:30 pm
by mpallamary
Excellent!
Good stuff. The legislative committee should review perhaps?
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:42 pm
by CBarrett
DWoolley wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:23 pm
As I stated on another thread, the land surveyors are only now coming into their own as the engineers allowed to survey retire and die. It should have been a golden era for the land surveyors - my expectations were far to optimistic.
So what would be solutions (other than legislation)?
Seems like we have legislative efforts pretty decently covered.
What about the others?
Actually it sounds like there is a disconnect between legislation and the membership which needs to be bridged.
What can surveyors do in their day to day work to start turning the iceberg?
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:19 pm
by mpallamary
Let's start with cleaning up the language in the legislation. What is a civil engineer? What is a registered civil engineer? What is a land survey engineer? What is a survey engineer? What is a geodetic engineer? What is a geomatics engineer? What is a geometronic engineer?
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:17 am
by LS9200
DWoolley wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:23 pm
LS9200 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:24 am
Not to hijack the intent of this thread, but when did the term "registered civil engineer" get changed? My thought is that this term was used when civil engineers were authorized to practice land surveying (pre-82). Is there something anyone can cite that would substantiate this? I think it would be helpful in trying to construe the argument for updating many antiquated municipal codes that do not differential the difference between the licenses.
I recently recorded a Ten Minute Surveyor video on the history of licensure in California.
In my research for the video, I recall RCE was removed in 1984 and likely, became PE. I also believe this is the time additional disciplines were added i.e. traffic...
As Warren said, most of the title acts were revised or passed in the 1970s.
Fun fact, in 1968-69 the engineers proposed making all licensed land surveyors engineers by license with the expectation the surveyors would work within their area of competence and the land surveyors license would be abolished. This was a proposed compromise as the surveyors moved to disallow engineers to perform land surveying.
As I stated on another thread, the land surveyors are only now coming into their own as the engineers allowed to survey retire and die. It should have been a golden era for the land surveyors - my expectations were far to optimistic.
DWoolley
Dave, thank you for the share the video was very informative and I learned some history I was not aware of. It sounded like you were referencing previous versions of the LS and PE act, if so how did you find these? I would like to see if I could gather anything from these to see if it would better justify the case. After further review of Mr. Warrens statements 6732 of the PE act states "any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter"
registered engineer and
civil engineer are both titles in that section, so I would consider Registered Civil Engineer to a combination of that.
-Nate
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:34 am
by LS9200
mpallamary wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:19 pm
Let's start with cleaning up the language in the legislation. What is a civil engineer? What is a registered civil engineer? What is a land survey engineer? What is a survey engineer? What is a geodetic engineer? What is a geomatics engineer? What is a geometronic engineer?
Agreed, the ambiguity and their antiquated protections garnered from them in these titles is only hindering the surveying profession and harming the public (wasted time and money on products delivered by people that are not licensed to produce them). As Mr. Wooley has stated in other areas of this forum, I personally will not idly walk into the sunset as others practice the profession. My hope is for stronger legislation and a greater representation of the profession in the permitting process (try getting a design through without an engineers stamp on it). It's 2022, the internet is at your finger tips if you want to learn how to do something you can and as we have all seen a lot of people want to learn land surveying (who wouldn't this is a great job). My opinion on how to protect it in the future is to make sure the profession is active in these areas.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:42 am
by mpallamary
PLSA 8751.
Representing self as licensed
No person shall represent himself or herself as, or use the title of, or any abbreviation or
combination of the words in the title of, professional land surveyor, licensed land surveyor, land
surveyor, land survey engineer, survey engineer, geodetic engineer, geomatics engineer, or
geometronic engineer unless he or she is the holder of a valid, unsuspended, and unrevoked
license.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:02 pm
by subman
Mike
Depending on what you mean by subdivision map. If you are talking about a “tentative map”, that can be prepared by a civil engineer (post 1982) since it does not have to be based on a precise survey. Not a good choice of words. I interpret that as a field survey.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:56 pm
by mpallamary
Not a Tentative Map. According to the Board, anyone can prepare a Tentative Map because nothing is built from it and it does not subdivide land. Tentative Maps and subdivision maps are both defined under state law. Unfortunately, many municipalities run under their own rules. With SB-9 it is worse based upon the polling I have done across the state.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:22 pm
by CBarrett
I'm reading conditions of approval for a map, a 200 lot tract map. Condition written by a planning department: the FINAL MAP shall be prepared by a Licensed Land Surveyor or a Registered Civil Engineer.
Final map emphasis is theirs.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:55 am
by mpallamary
Of course. That is generally across the state.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:24 am
by LS_8750
Most CEs I know couldn't survey their way out of a paper bag, let alone distinguish an iron pipe monument from a sprinkler head or decipher a legal description of land from a Sanskrit chant.
Any attempt to try to play land surveyor should be met with license revocation.
Re: Who can prepare a subdivision map?
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:52 am
by CBarrett
LS_8750 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:24 am
Most CEs I know couldn't survey their way out of a paper bag, let alone distinguish an iron pipe monument from a sprinkler head or decipher a legal description of land from a Sanskrit chant.
Any attempt to try to play land surveyor should be met with license revocation.
I have a bet with myself, when I start checking a map, I look it over for 5 minutes and make a prediction "This map is done by a dual licensee" (because it usually lacks a few random basic elements). This prediction is usually true 70% to 80% of the cases, with an occasional brand new LS or few out of town LS's.