California Surveyors Forums

Jim Frame wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:42 am

These are not sole proprietor four corner projects where recon takes an hour.

I do some of those, like the one I described in another thread. But even though I'm a 1-man shop, I'll also do much larger projects and then hand the boundary off to the engineering/planning teams.

The largest was a couple of years ago, a 17,000-acre ranch with about 60 controlling monuments. I did have help on that one -- a guy from another firm (my client) who did some digging and made some redundant ties -- but I did all the research, personally tied every one of the controlling monuments, processed the data, put together the boundary, drafted and signed the ROS. The highlight of the job was one hot summer afternoon when I had chopped my way through about 200' of tuies trying to reach a section corner and realized that the water was too deep to proceed. While standing there pondering my next move, a river otter popped his head up about four feet in front of me and just stared. By the time I got my phone out for a photo he had disappeared. The next day I kayaked across a canal and was able to reach the corner from the other direction. It was a fun job.

Nice! Biggest one I participated on, feet on the ground, that I remember was Tejon Ranch boundary, back in I think mid 2000's. I did some volunteer field work in San Jacinto Mountains for boys and girls club, around those years too.
Around here you run into rattlesnakes, roadrunners, Bobcats, mountain lions, deer, and an occasional black bear, and sometimes you come home with a litter of abandoned kittens.

I was teaching my hubby just last summer how to protect his legs, get the right shoes and watch his steps when trapsing around undeveloped land and sketchy vegetation. He didn't know to test his footing before putting full weight on something. I was teasing him for being a flat earth walker.

ekparian wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:51 am I would say the LS who signs the map.....
(Snipped for brevity)

There are many deficient maps out there. I check maps (on contract) for three different counties. Subdivision and RS's. I get to see first hand who produces what. Big, medium and small companies can all produce deficient work.

As for responsible charge, there is a good writeup on that in the PLS act. ;)

ekparian wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:51 am …
An engineering firm surveyed the property next door and created a tract map around 2010 and they set the property corners.
Low and behold I found 2 sets of corners (those from the 1950's and those from 2010's) about 8 feet apart along the common property line.
The engineering firm essentially created a gap, not overlap so the tract lot owner was not trying to claim my clients land but was shorted in thier land. Obviously the original corners hold.

File a complaint with BPELSG, today.

ekparian wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:51 am His firm was a big firm which was bought out by a bigger firm. They both are/were firms who have an engineering staff, surveyor staff, project managers, planners, hr department etc. Both firms are/were union. He went to work for that bigger firm as a project manager. He said he would look into it and I haven't heard anything further.

Big firm = 25+ surveying people – 2X the issues if the surveyors are warehoused within an engineering company.

I cannot imagine any boundary survey that requires a big firm. For example, I am in a small firm and we have no less than 160 pages of records of survey currently being reviewed by the county. Over the last twenty years, we have filed more than 300 records of survey. I believe this is more than the five largest firms and the five County Surveyors in my area…combined.

Most big firms have one crew, maybe a backup crew, that does their boundary work. Arguably, for the reasons outlined above, big firms are ill suited to provide boundary surveys for large difficult projects. The process described above, search calcs, repeated phone calls, elaborate directions sounds excruciating. I have worked in that environment, brutal from a professional standpoint. In fact, many of the problem boundaries I encounter are surveyed by big firms. Why? Most big firms, many small engineering firms too, do not have land surveyor owners/principles that can make the call to do it right/complete when there is no budget. We have a resume with some really cool boundary surveys, but many of them would have resulted in my being fired in a big firm. Boundary surveying is no way to make a living.

Big companies are business models first, service providers second and land surveyors – as purists – somewhere further down the line. The business model is programmed for a 3.0 multiplier, 85% utilization rate and 20% profit margin. The PLS is held to the model, any deviation and someone might lose their job. Quality boundaries and budgets are oftentimes incompatible. Awesome boundary or making a budget? Budget usually wins. If you are new to a big firm and doubt what I am saying, throw 10 hours on your next timesheet to Admin/OH and see if you do not get called on the carpet. What will the surveyor do when two more monuments are needed and there is no money left? Searched, found nothing is a fallback position.

ekparian wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:51 am Both firms are/were union.

Combining several posts above, when the union describes their own people as being softheaded, coupled with a real and fair description of working with their folks on the daily, is anyone really surprised by the end results? The union folks are trained, almost to exclusivity, for construction staking. Taking them at their written word, boundary work is a square peg, round hole, bloody forehead, rinse and repeat.

Boundary surveying is its own animal. Good surveyors can make bad mistakes. The further the land surveyor gets away from the field process the odds are increased a mistake will happen - it was not intended to be this way. There is no "field" or "office" surveyor. It is licensed land surveyor with preferences towards the field and/or office. Looking ahead, there is LSIT, PLS and the unemployed folks that know how to set up an instrument.

I have had my share of close calls – several factors are in play that separate success from failure. The biggest source of failure is usually in survey research. The second biggest source of failure is a failure to recognize and collect evidence and third, donk measurements/procedures. At some point after the research, the budget concerns exacerbate number two and three and the road to negligence becomes well travelled.

DWoolley

ekparian wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:51 am ...
I just surveyed a property (2 months ago) that was surveyed in the 1950's +/_. The 1950's map set corners.
An engineering firm surveyed the property next door and created a tract map around 2010 and they set the property corners.
Low and behold I found 2 sets of corners (those from the 1950's and those from 2010's) about 8 feet apart along the common property line.
The engineering firm essentially created a gap, not overlap so the tract lot owner was not trying to claim my clients land but was shorted in thier land. Obviously the original corners hold.
...

Based on my reading of the quoted section, the engineering company surveyed a 1950s lot, Lot 1. You were hired to survey the adjacent 1950's lot, Lot 2. In 2010, Lot 1 was subdivided by Engineer A, but Engineer A did not subdivide all of the property within the bounds of Lot 1. Your survey of Lot 2 is unaffected, you simply noted Lot 1 was incorrectly established by the engineer. Is that correct?

Technically, the engineer didn't create a gap - the engineer simply [unknowingly] didn't subdivide all of the land owned by the client. The engineer inadvertently created a remnant parcel, right?

What, if anything, are you going to do with the information?

DWoolley

Dave,
These properties were surveyed by the same company in the 40s 50s and 60s by record of survey. The engineering firm surveyed a parcel next door to my clients parcel.
I completed a record of survey, notified the engineer of record who signed the map and notified the county surveyor. The double corners didn't affect my client.
My record of survey serves as public notice and do not know what to do further.
The point to my story is yes responsible charge is outlined by the pls act but be careful who you have in charge of your boundary and take precautions not to be in a position that you could be held liable.
Yeah, I think they did create a remnant parcel along my clients parcel and an overlap with highway 101 (caltrans).
If you want to look at this example further, I can forward you the maps.
Thanks,
Drexyl

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In California you do not need a degree to become a licensed professional engineer.
I've met two persons who obtained their civil PE without a degree, in the last 30 years, and both were outstanding professionals.

When you do the research you will find in California you do not need such and such degrees, certifications, etc. to be a subject matter expert witness. Instead, your qualifications are based on your experience and knowledge of the subject matter and of course subject to voir dire.

You walk into a place or onto a job site and you will find lots of folks with college degrees doing work that does not require a college education.

The system, establishment, etc. constructed the illusion that success depends on whether or not you got yourself an education from a university. Without a college degree you will be working at McDonald's is their anthem and anything less than a college degree makes you a loser. My family is bent on the mindset too that my kids will go to a good university and get a quality education, and any argument I can make to the contrary will fail. The college degree is another of Pink Floyd's "Bricks in the Wall". The university is the system, the establishment, the parasite and its host is our youth.

The wealthiest folks I know are self built and achieved their wealth through hard work and skipped college altogether.

I agree. The surveyor who is going to sign the map should at least visit the field to do the recon. Most field surveyors are competent data loggers but do not always have the correct experience to decide what information needs to be collected for a boundary survey.
By going out in the field I can be sure that all of the information I need to make a good decision on a boundary is collected. Also, to be sure that I know what the impact of my boundary decisions are on the adjoiners. One hour to visit the site is worth so much compared to the problems that may be encountered without that site visit.
But I digress...
There are many states that require a four year degree without harm to their population of surveyors. Surveying is getting to be more complex technologically and understanding the tools of today and the future is important for the new generation of land surveyors.
I submit that a continuing education requirement is even more important than a four year degree. Nevada has that requirement, along with many other states. We see many Nevada surveyors at the conferences due to that requirement.
It also helps the profession keep up with advances in technology and a deeper understanding of the law as applied to land surveying.