California Surveyors Forums

A couple of weeks back, a friend of mine who works with a utility company and coordinates with construction projects and permitting issues calls me up. In his office is a couple who live in a remote area of the county and need a survey. They apparently have already spoken to a number of surveyors in the area and none are interested in working in that particular area.

This area of the county, although remote, has a lot of 1 to 5 acre tracts used as residential, and even a few residential subdivisions. It used to be a vast area of timberland, and therefore the land was considered to be of relatively poor value while the trees on it were of considerable value.

Most of the early surveying in the area was done with little care, and I suspect that some was done with an eye toward timber value rather than being based upon actual boundary evidence. Consequently, it's a mess to work in. There are corners that have been locally accepted for 30 to 60 years, and occasionally, there are still original GLO corners found to conflict with them, sometimes showing nearly 200' difference in position. It can be very ugly or very interesting, depending upon your perspective.

So the wife calls me a few days later and fills me in on what they think thy need and why they need it. About 20 years ago, they bought this 5 acre parcel as recreational land. As circumstances changed, so did there plans for the land, and now, they have their dream home built on it and they've been living there for a few years.

All without pulling a single permit from the County.

Last year, someone buys the 5 acres next to theirs and builds a house. Their neighbors, being city folk and not knowing that what the County don't know won't hurt them, pulls all the permits required by law. The building inspector comes out and thinks "I don't recall ever doing anything with that property where that other house is sitting". And my prospective clients get hit for building without permits.

So now they need to retroactively apply for the permits (includes double fees to the County) and part of that is a "site plan" prepared by a PLS. Locate existing features, show location of proposed (now existing) improvements, contours around building site, property lines shown with distances from structures to the setbacks.



This parcel is a deed parcel and does not show up on any record maps, so I think RS right away. She tells me that thy have seen metal pins at all 4 corners. The parent parcel, apparently an aliquot 20, shows on a RS from 1967 showing it's 4 corners monumented. No such record for this 5.

This area has lots of issues including many unrecorded surveys and a lot of work of unlicensed "surveyors". So I expect that the boundary will be a tough one and I explain these things to both Mr. and Mrs. Landowner, stating a low end cost estimate in case I am surprised and find sufficient record monumentation right where it should be and no evidence to contradict record, and a higher estimate that represents a number slightly higher than I expect it will take, and then go on to explain that in an area like theirs, there is the distinct possibility that it could get even more expensive. I also gave them a separate estimate for the topo, which sems darn right cheap compared to the boundary.

Mr. Landowner says write up the contract because it needs to be done.

A couple of days ago, Mrs. Landowner calls up and says they went back to the County to get written guidelines for the mapping required. Building Services counter person apparently told them that they don't need a RS, just the site plan with the aforementioned required items shown.

I don't see how to do this without a boundary survey. I don't see how to do the boundary without triggering the RS. Client expects that I will call back with a vastly reduced fee based upon what the County said. Mr. Landowner now says he would rather put the money toward a lawyer to sue the County.

Can anyone provide reasoning how or why this could or should be done without the RS?

Evan:

Is the 5 acre parcel shon on a Parcel Map? You mentioned tracts, which prompts my question.

The counter person was quite correct, from their point of view. The County does not need a Record of Survey at all in order to accept the Site Plan for processing. The STATE statute requires you to prepare and file the RS as a function of your license. Even so, I would find out who Mr. Landowner spoke with at the County and have a chat with the County Surveyor as to the bad advice being handed out by non-licensed people.

How would you show the saetbacks from the house to the property lines without a field survey to locate both the house and the setback? If the boundary isn't shown on a record map, how do you avoid the RS?

Your first statement was a clue, "other surveyors do not want to work in the area". Stick to your estimates, I believe you know what is right, as we all do. You must file a RS and like it or not the Landowner is stuck with following the rules. Based on your info, you must file a RS. Know how do you educate the landowner?

RAM

PS I haven't forgotten I owe your kids ice cream.

The parcel is not shown on a parcel map. Tract, being a term used differently depending on region, can cause some confusion. I was using it in the more generic sense as in "a tract, parcel, or piece of land".

I understand that Building Services has no interest in whether a RS needs to be done, but they need to understand the requirements that theirs trigger elsewhere. The planners who have been around a while understand this better because our CS office does communicate these things to them from time to time. But most of the counter staff tend to be lower in seniority and there seems to be a revolving door for those positions.


As far as other surveyors not wanting to work in a particular area, if it's for survey related issues, I haven't let that deter me yet. If it has to do with the sour disposition of the local residents, the nature of the local (illicit) crops or alchemy, then I try to avoid them.

These particular landowners got into this mess by avoiding the rules. Now the various govt fees & penalties, and professional fees of various consultants will likely run them $80K to $100K. My fee is likely to be about 8% to 10% of the total. But if he wants to throw twice as much at a lawyer first before finding out he can't win, who am I to stop him?

I'll just make sure that I get a sizable deposit and stay on top of the invoicing.


RAM,

Natasha and I might have to plan a family trip to Yosemite and meet you for that ice cream on the way. Otherwise, I'll bring them to the next grading session.

Evan,

Is the neighbor one of the other 5 acre parcels created by deed from the 20 acre aliquot parcel? If so, how did they get their plans approved? What type of setback site plan document did their surveyor prepare?

Does this County typically require a site plan to be stamped by a PLS to certify the footprint of the structures with respect to front, rear and side yard setbacks?

I worked at a rural building and safety office, All we were interested in was making sure they met minimum side, front and rear yard setbacks and we didn't need precise surveyed measurements. We certainly didn't ask for a site plan prepared by a PLS. I suspect they are getting a hard time for building without permits, Usually, the architect or draftsman would prepare the site plan based on the parcel dimensions shown on the latest Assessors Map Book page. When they formed their foundation, the inspector would satisfy himself that the building was situated generally as shown on the site plan and that he was satisfied that the minimum setback requirements were met (i.e. 20' front, 5' side and 15' rear) depending on what the particular land use zone required).

What if the parcel was a quarter section (160 acres) instead of 5 acres? Would the inspector actually pace or measure that the house was 1320' from the property line? I think his common sense would tell him, "close enough".

Evan,
You have alrteady given us your considered opinion that a record of survey is likely a requirement. I would not now try to help you figure out how to not do what you havbe said is required. This is actually the source your clinets problems..... the desire to cut corners to save a buck.

It seems that the client at this point is best served by someone who will figured out what the right thing to do is and do that. After all they are having to go through, would they like get the project wrapped up and finally completed? Taking what you have stated at face value, it really is in their best interest to have a full and complete survey done. By this, I mean they want a survey that will stand the test of time and not a splap dash thing that can get them by interim planning hurdles, but leaves them with an indefensible postion with respect to the location of their boundary. Do they want to revisit boundary issues AGAIN five or Ten years from now?

This may be a project that you really do not want. It is very important that there be a proper balance between the client and consultant. The client needs to accept your opinion of what services are needed to accomplish the goals of their request and to provide an adequate budget for you to provide the services to meet their needs. A deficiency in either area (acceptence of professional advice or adequate budget) are areas that ought to give you pause and perhaps pass on this job as well.

Evan,

All have a good point, especially Dennis with regards to how the adjoiner got their approval.

One suggestion at your disposal. Inform the (potential) client that you are providing your recommendations in good faith and in their best interest. If they want an non-vested opinion on the issues at hand, recommend that they call the Board of Registration and ask to speak to the Staff Land Surveyor for guidance so they can feel comfortable with the consultant they partner with.

This is not as uncommon as you may think...inquiries from the general consumer seeking advice and verification of licensees.

Ric

E,

no, you cant be afraid to venture in where no surveyor has gone before. Beauvious (Boo-Veigh) a little 4'9" frenchman took it upon himself to complete sectional surveys when previous surveyors like Von Schmidt stated the terrain was too tough.

A survey need to be done. too bad they cut corners, too bad they dont respect our profession. and sorry, but don't let some counter planner snivelly poo poo state otherwise. Law is Law.

You are a good Surveyor. Go Survey. Make the plan and Plat like the law says. Honor your contract, when the dust clears you will have done a service to your client and they will be cleared of their misunderstanding.

"good" and ready

No contract yet. It won't be surprising if I don't get this one because, sadly, there will be someone who will be willing to cut corners to do it cheaper and produce the minimum required by the County.

I just wanted a gut check that I wasn't over thinking this. A former employer once told me that I like to build a watch out of everything, so I'm just getting a few extra opinions verifying that my A.R. was at the right level.


Ric, I will take your advice and suggest that they contact the BPELS LS consultant if they doubt my word on it. I'll also likely tell them that if they want to work with someone shady enough to skirt the law, if they make enough calls, they'll be able to find someone to do it.

When other companies feild crews or office staff tell my staff that they think I'm a tough "son of a gun" to work for, My staff usually tells me then laughs.
They would rather hash things out in the office and get it "right" than just slosh it through and rely on a big insurance policy.

In todays economy, it is very tough to turn down any job no matter how ugly it looks. Sometimes its just better to do so and keep your sanity.

If you get this job, I hope it works out for you. If not, then maybe you dodged a blob of goop.

Its ok to build a watch.

If you make the trip let us know, T is in the phone book.

OK I have the same type of situation, BUT it is a area of lease on Federal Land. The land is in Federal owenership and each home owner owns the house. They tore down the old house and will now rebuild based on my topo. Since there are no property lines there is no set backs, right? However how do I ensure my client does not infingement on the adjoining lease? Nobody seems to have a copy of their lease, and the Feds don't seem to care. The County doesn't care because there are no set backs. Oh yea, no monuments, and no records due to the fact it is all Federal ownership. Bottom line is we have discuss at great length with the client and put it in writing our concerns about protecting the adjoining lease rights.

Any thoughts,

Thanks in advance.

There are similar leases in the Tahoe area. The USFS has maps of those areas that are much like old subdivision maps in appearance. These are not recorded with the County.

As you said, no monuments set, and I doubt that everyone who holds one of these leases has an accurate description of it. But the maps do show ties to the nearest section and 1/4 corners. We had a couple of these at the edge of one of the County projects that I worked on and they appeared to have been surveyed with a reasonable amount of care as they tied in well with what we found.

Check with the USFS (or whichever agency holds the fee) office that has the survey records for that area. There's a reasonable chance that they may have a similar map.

We have found a "Plat" of the lots however it is back on the client to agree to spend the extra money. It may not be as unique a situation as I thought.