California Surveyors Forums

So they want us to purchase the manual and then make comments? Will the comments lead to edits? What would be the point of purchasing something only to have it edited later and revised? Will the revised sections of the manual be available for free?

I don't see any reason why a government publication like the BLM manual can not be made available on the web as a PDF. There is no good reason not to do this.

If they can't make a PDF draft of the manual available for comments that acutally make a difference, we should revolt! :]

As an alternative, we could organize an alternative means to accept comments from land surveyors on the new manual when it becomes available. We could then review and organize these comments by section, and publish them as a free supplement. We could make the supplement available online and release it under one of the Creative Commons licenses. I can host a web page and make some space available on my web server for this purpose.

Of course, it would be better if the government would make this a more colloborative process. It is very easy to make this process more easy with today's technology. It is a shame we still operate like we are in the days of the old printing press.

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)

I thought I read that they changed their policy on closing corners. Did someone read that and understand what that was. I can't remember were I found it! Something about how you can accept the CC as an angle point or something.....

As far as I know Bob Dahl has been working on the next edition for several years now and there have been draft chapters circulated among the primary audience for the manual as well there has been plenty of opportunity for private surveyors to get a hold the drafts and to make comment.

I am certainly no expert and would defer to you Mr Wahl, but I have attended more than one seminar where Bob spoke about the upcoming changes to the manual and at each seminar he made everyone aware of a website,don't have the link now, where the goings on with manual update would be tracked and folks could comment if they choose to do so. At each of the seminars Bob outlined the process of how the manual would be updated and how the feedback process would work and who would have a chance to have input. From my personal experience any interested stakeholder could have availed themselves of an opportunity to comment. This may not have been OFFICIAL, but I believe it was the case that there was a chance for input.

So it is true that there was not ,as far as I know, a pdf of the entire manual that any private surveyor in the country could pull up, then jot down some notes and shoot em back to DC. There was however an outline of contemplated revisions posted and an easy way to contact the author should any have decided to do so. Apparently this process does not meet your requirements or idea of a proper public review. My view is that the process as conducted was actually a better process, since there was an avenue for public comment throughout the entire project for a motivated inrerested stakeholder.

I don't understand why the BLM or CFedS sites are not providing any useful updates on when, where, and how to obtain the 2009 Manual. Seems like they would want to keep us informed.
I thought that in this modern age they would have made it available immediately as a free pdf download.
From what I've heard, and what you've reiterated, it will be distributed to the BLM personnel first, then sometime later (you say December, I was told November last week) the book will be available only through ACSM, for a fee.
I might be going out on a limb here, but I think many, if not most, would prefer a free download to a book purchase. Particularly as it was created with our tax dollars.

Keep up the good work Jerry!

I look forward to purchasing a hard cover book I can hold in my hand, and store it on my shelf next to my other hardcover Manuals, and have no problem paying for it. Stuff costs money.

The note about extending the "comment period" is rather confusing, but remember it's the Feds. They'll get it together eventually and it will be a fine Manual. Chill and have a little faith...

I am with Dave on this. I'd like to have a hardcopy to hold in my hand. At the same time I see no reason why at some point a PDF would not be forthcoming. You nknow the best of both worlds.

Common sense says they will, for the reasons stated.
If they don't, I'm sure I can convince my representatives in Congress to ask them for their reasoning.
But for now I'll just wait and see.
Cheers!

See the following link for pre-orders:

http://www.acsm.net/index.cfm?fuseactio ... _cat_ID=14

Price is $125 (!), same price for members & non-members.

Where does this one fall in terms of 'public information'???

Tom

For another timely update on what is proving to be the elusive publication date of the 2009 Manual.

Do you know if ANYONE has a copy yet?

Many surveying education courses use the freely available "1973 Manual" in lieu of an expensive textbook to teach the History (Chpt 1), the Layout (Chpt 3), Restoration (Chpt 5) and other details of the Rectangular Survey System.
The Manual itself recognizes that fact in Section 1-3: "Details of the plan and its methods go beyond the scope of textbooks on surveying"

While I would normally applaud any effort to provide scholarships to surveying students, dont they realize that by copyrighting this document it will be taking more money from more students than they could ever hope to assist through this mysterious PLSS foundation?

I believe their approach needs to be reevaluated.

jlw: thanks for sharing your insight. This is Not a petty thing.

I personally try to bite my tongue but ACSM needs a very careful look

Jerry, please do keep carrying the torch.
I too question why copyright is being claimed on a document of the public domain.
thanks for your efforts,
Jeff

Thanks for your comments, I believe that they are very much appreciated. I cannot remember, but it seems that the 1973 manual was something that we had to pay for, but that could have been because PDF was not available at the time. I have to admit, that I am a little conflicted, on the one hand tax dollars have paid for the manual and because of this it ought to be free to citzens except for costs associated with copying the document. While the government is running very much in the red, it is reasonable to expect them to collect fees and taxes where they can for services. Now, if I totally misunderstand the whole thing, then please excuse my ignorance.

I'm with Jerry. I don't know if I want to spend time fighting city hall on the matter, but he's got the principles right near as I can tell.

.

Since most of the Public Lands were surveyed under the 1855 manual, what do you feel the relevance of the 2009-2010-2011 (just kidding) manual is? I do have some ideas, but for most of the privately held lands it's the 1855 Manual is the one to follow since it's the one that most of the lands were surveyed under that. Besides the State Exam, why do we always refer to the LATEST manual and not the one that matters most?

Hopefully the chapters covering retracement and resurveys will adequately address your concerns Eric.

See, , ,
I agree with Eric on this point.
The (then) current manual instructions AND methods were ised during those great Public lands surveys.
The New Manual should address how to adapt GPS "thinking" into a Solar transit origin.

It would be helpful to list "definitions of the day" so they can be understood in modern "Speak" for instance, where does the "crest of a hill" begin.
Where is the middle of an "Undulating valley " ?
There are answers to these and other terms, but i still come across retracement surveys that totally ignore traverse line ties and opt for the GPS absolute distance.
I am anxiously awaiting to see how the new Manual deals with the folly of our modern "methods" with regards to retracement.

1855 here we come . . . .

I received an email from CLSA the other day that says the new manual will be available at the conference, and that if you've already ordered one through CLSA and are registered for the conference, your manual will be there for you to pick up.

and if so how is it worded?
Thanks!

Rather than a "What is wrong with this section?" series, why not just discussion about various sections. And why not some discussion about areas that have been improved?

BTW, I don't know if those who paid $138 (or some other amount greater than $82) subsidized my lower cost of the Manual, but if it did, thanks for your contribution.

I received mine at the conference and as a special bonus, Robert V. Abbey. Director, Bureau of Land Management, who was the Conference Key Note Speaker, took time to sign all of the books from those who wanted it.
Pretty cool gesture to get it personalized to me by the Director! Yes I am proud of it.

I ordered mine from CLSA. When will they be shipped out? This is the 2009 or 2010 Manual????

What I was told by someone connected with the CLSA Central Office was that ACSM received the new (2009) Manuals just a couple of days before our conference, and so without even opening them up, they just turned around and sent 20 boxes to CLSA at the Silver Legacy.

Since that was just over a week ago, it's not surprising that you haven't received yours yet, but I think that unless there are backorder issues, you should expect it within the next few days.

You could email them directly to find out if you're getting impatient.

Jerry,

You make some good points in your last message. I think there is some real merit in this statement:

"Do you know that the very publication of the (2009?) Manual, what has always been a public domain document is now being done by false assertion of a 'copyright' in order to generate profits for this 'foundation'?"

I certainly think free and open access to government documents is an important principle of our society. You should be able to download the new manual as a PDF online. It is great to purchase a hard copy book to support non-profit surveying organizations, but this should be a choice, not a requirement.

It seems you feel very passionate about this issue. How can we turn that passion into a productive action? Perhaps you could write an article for the California Surveyor magazine expressing your concerns about (1) how the manual is being released to the surveying profession, (2) the changes in the manual that may not be appropriate, and (3) how the new manual might be misused by surveyors with good intentions but not a good understanding of its purpose.

There may be other actions we can take. Can we write a letter to the BLM asking for the release of a digital version of the manual in the public domain?

I have a lot or respect for your experience with the PLSS and BLM. I know you have always done a great job answering my questions. I'd like to help you take more concrete action if you think there would be a benefit. I can help you write the magazine article, write a letter requesting release of the manual, or even to set up a simple web page outlinging some of the concerns we should have as a surveying community about the manual review process.

The important thing is to take an objective and balance look at the new manual and the publication process, and then see how we can take productive action that will benefit our surveying brethren.

The Sunburned Surveyor
PLS 8489