California Surveyors Forums

This statement was made in another thread, and I think that the practice deserves some discussion of its own. The following two paragraphs is what was said.



"If a potential client give me your proposal so you and I are proposing on the same thing, there's nothing wrong with that. Asking to see the competitors scope is just that. Is his scope the same? (Did he say he'd set points every 25' or 50' for instance?) Is he proposing to set temporary points while you proposed to set corners and file a RS? I'd be very curious to see someone try to turn me in to the Board because i turned them into the County Surveyor for performing an illegal survey! If someone wins a proposal because they are not in compliance with the Law, then they are the ones who need to worried, not me. If the scope is different I can certainly bring it up to the potential client if he had not signed a contract yet.â€￾

“"Stealing" clients, or bad-mouthing someone is different than making sure your not being undercut by unethical practices or the more benign, scope differences.â€￾



The person making this statement has expressed two clear reasons for asking for the competitor’s proposal, and I assume that his intentions are good. Those being 1) to ensure that the client is getting the service, in terms of scope, that he needs, and 2) to ensure that the client is not being ripped off by an unscrupulous surveyor who is cutting corners and possibly doing so to the point of violating the law.

While I'm not questioning this person's motivations (I assume that he is looking at it as serving and protecting his prospective client), I see some real ethical problems with this practice.

I do not have time to expand on it right now, but wanted to open up the discussion.

What are your thoughts on obtaining your competitors' proposals from clients? Do you think that it is a reasonable normal business practice? If not, are there any circumstances under which you might ask for a competitor's proposal? What if the prospective client provides it to you without your asking for it?

I'll provide more complete thoughts later on.

In all my years I have rarely (maybe twice) ever had the chance to look at a competitor's proposal, and that was by chance...not because I went out looking for it. I certainly would not "ask" my client for some other company's proposal.

The ethics of this probably boils down to personal opinion, mine being that it crosses the line. My goal is to prepare the best proposal I can, incorporating the sum of my 30 years experience, and covering all the legal bases and caveats that I can think of. Hopefully, the thoroughness and persuasiveness of it will speak for itself, and the client will therefore see it as being equal to, or better than, the ones from my competitors.

I'm not looking to educate anyone, save, perhaps my client, should he/she be new to the game.

I've never asked to see a competitor's proposal prior to contract award, though I can envision a circumstance in which a client who is unsure of his own surveying needs might benefit from a discussion about the scopes of work described in the various proposals he has received. In that case I might ask to the see the proposals with the cost lines redacted.

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I have never asked or heard a story like this till I read it in the original thread and said to myself, "Hmmmm, not to ethical".

In instances when a potential client tells me he got a cheaper bid, I inform him of my justifications and question what the "other surveyor" was going to set, and file with the county surveyor? That usually takes care of the problem, because they don't know. Then I inform the potential client to read the CLSA flyer I gave them on "How to Consult a Land Surveyor". That is good information to enlighten the potential client, and help them understand our profession.

Furthermore I have asked if the proposal was from a member of CLSA? That hopefuylly shows the potential client the different levels of professionals. Maybe their proposal is from a non-licensed indivual too?

Put the burden of proof on the client to understand what they are going to recieve if you get their confidence to protect their property, rather than attack another surveyor.

If the potential client decides to go with another surveyor, it is their call, and you should not go attack that person.

Act professional and the cards will fall where they fall.

That's my .01 cents, cause .02 cents is too much information for today, lol.

I don't think I ever advocated "attacking" the other professional but simply want to see if his scope of work is the same and we're on an equal playing field. Proposals to public agencies are public information, so that's a no brainer.

For private jobs: There's nothing in the Board Rules about asking to see someone's proposal. If I tell the client that the other company is doing something illegal (even If I think it's true) there could be grounds for a complaint. We're not supposed to disparage other professionals, even if we think they are doing something unethical or illegal, there are proper channels for that. That's why you should get your facts straight beforehand.

Just for the record, I usually get a verbal response to the scope, and not the actual proposal. As in: Wow, he's half the price! Is it a licensed surveyor? "Yes." My proposal included compliance with State Law and local ordinances, does his include filing a Record of Survey? "..........I'll ask".

I've yet to actually get my hands on a private proposal, but I would have no problem with it whatsoever. It's not secret, and it belongs to the client.

"Proposals to public agencies are public information, so that's a no brainer."

About 20 years ago I submitted a proposal to a nearby city in response to an RFP. We didn't win -- didn't even make the short list, as I recall -- but when I later asked (in writing) to see the winning proposal, my request was denied on the grounds that it contained proprietary information. I never followed up on that, and I've always wondered whether the city's denial was legal.

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Well I think asking for another surveyor's proposal is completely unethical. I understand that as professionals we are to take care and nurture our industry but doing so by asking for information which I feel is confidential is not the right way to go about it. I understand the curiosity of wanting to know who and why someone beat you in a competition. However, I feel that reviewing a proposal is not always the best way to determine whether a surveyor's practices and procedures are legal.

I know that a company which I used to work for didn't charge for a record of survey and therefor did not place the item on its' proposals but explain to the client that if necessary (which I think it always is), we would file a record of survey at no charge as long as monuments were not set. If the client wanted monumentation, then a fee was assessed.

I think the best way to go about finding out if the proper practices are being done for a survey is by reviewing a title commitment when you get a project. More often than not a survey is listed in the report and if there is not a record of survey I will actually call the surveyor and give him or her the opportunity to resolve the issue. If he or she refuses or denies or drags their feet on the matter, I will then call again and give them one last chance with an ultimatum that if I do not see a rough draft of a record of survey within a certain time frame, that I will report the issue to the board.

On my last idea, I think that reviewing a proposal to nit pick and bad mouth a fellow professional is not only unethical, it is down right mean. I feel that by doing this, which you may think of as "educating" your potential clients, you are not only bringing down the fellow surveyor, but also the profession as a whole as now who does the public trust?

Just remember, we all have our skeletons and it isn't what they are, but how you determine what to do about them that makes you a professional.

Karma has its way of working around, it is just patience which we must have to see Karma in action.

Good point. Just did that the other day (looked at the work product at the planning counter, not his Proposal). My competitor was a landscape architect, not a Land Surveyor. Go figure.

There is an exception in the LS Act for Landscaping and this guy took advantage of it.

Eric,

While performing my own research on this subject, I have had discussions with the Landscape Architect Technical Advisory Committee for the Architect's Board regarding this "exemption" and I have yet to see any "surveys for landscape purposes" meet this exemption.

Of course, this is getting off topic...

I asked myself if i would have any problem if another surveyor saw my standard contract scope (minus the fee). And i answered not really, until i thought would anyone of you post a scope for a simple topographic survey on here to be ripped apart and scrutinized. I doubt it.

I'm not concerned about my proposal being ripped apart and scrutinized. Getting such feedback might make my future proposals better.

I have other concerns which I will express when I have more time.

Reviewing another's work product does not present any ethical considerations that I can think of, unless someone is using it for the sole purpose of badmouthing a competitor to clients or fellow professionals. In the context Dave describes, I think that is a perfectly legitimate reason to ask for and review work product.

Original Post ?

I was kinda sorta thinking that perhaps a good discussion with the potential client can help determine the scope of work needed for the job (or reqested by the client).

When we run into those "dont know what I need" clients, we start with the basics of work and go from there.

If some "gypsie" surveyor [see other thread] wants to do a half job for a sub-rate, and theclient goes that route, then . . .as Evan may allude. . . It's simply time to brush up on the original presentation. If the client becomes educated on his/her needs, they are less apt to fall prey to the "under-cutters"
As far as demanding someone elses "bid" . . . well I'd rather move on.

Just a thought ? I hope I didnt misunderstand the point again. 8~)

"Good"

Here are the issues that I have, that I think asking for a competitor’s proposal places one on shaky ground in terms of ethics.

First, and this should be obvious, is that a person having this knowledge is in a position to then craft one’s own proposal to look better, either in terms of scope, in terms of apparent fees, or both. I don’t care how good your proposal is, assuming that my resources and skills are at least somewhat comparable to yours, if I have the benefit of having your proposal in front of me as I write mine, I can make mine look better.

I can highlight or embellish certain qualifications. I can craft scope language such that it sounds that I am offering what you are offering or more, when in reality, I am offering no more and perhaps less. I can use your fee estimate as an index to target mine at 10% less.

I very much doubt that this was what was intended by the remarks I cited in the OP. But let’s take a look at the stated or implied motives in those statements, which I interpreted as being 1) to ensure that the client is getting the service, in terms of scope, that he needs, and 2) to ensure that the client is not being ripped off by an unscrupulous surveyor who is cutting corners and possibly doing so to the point of violating the law.

Let’s look at whether we should be doing these things in this manner, and also look at these motivations from a different perspective.

Motivation #1: Scope differences.

Scope differences are often a major component of the competitive difference between one service provider and another. I may include a service that you may overlook, or describe a process of which you are unaware that may make me significantly more efficient than you, giving me a competitive advantage. A well crafted proposal that includes all necessary scope items and may describe innovative solutions to meet the client’s needs is reflective of a well qualified and adaptive professional who is aware of the issues of the project and can anticipate potentially changing needs in the project.

A less qualified person who has that professional’s proposal in hand, can create a competing proposal which covers all those bases, whether he would have thought of them or not, and can toss in a little embellishment (read BS), and trim his fee a little to give him an undeserved advantage.

“I just want to make sure that I’m offering the same scope of services.” A better, and more ethical approach would be to ask pertinent questions of the prospective client, and then draw upon your own experience and knowledge to come up with an appropriate scope, worded such that the client understands what you are providing and why it is either necessary or advantageous for your client, and calculate an estimated fee for that scope. As Lee alluded to, I do not write my proposals to be an educational text for my competitors. Nor do I like to think that I write them simply to provide a target for another surveyor to beat.

You may not have looked at it that way, but that’s exactly what you are doing if you are preparing your proposal after having looked at someone else’s for that project.


Motivation #2: Concern that another is trying to rip off the client.

This can fall into one of two categories. The first being that the other surveyor is not providing enough service to fully and properly meet the client’s needs, and second, that the other surveyor is offering to do something which circumvents the law in order to cut costs.

A proposal is one of the documents that BPELS may look at during an enforcement matter, so there may be situations, under very specific circumstances, where it may be appropriate to ask for that proposal.

First, if you suspect that the other surveyor has put together a scope that doesn’t meet the client’s needs, but you have no indication that there is anything illegal about the proposed service, then don’t even think about looking at that proposal even if the client offers it without your asking. Go back and re-read my concern at the beginning of this post.

If you think that the other guy is offering stakes every 50’ and you think that 25’s will be needed, then it is up to you to explain why you are proposing what you are, why it’s necessary and/or advantageous to your client. It’s up to you to demonstrate why the level of service you are offering is worth the fee, then let the client decide whether the higher level of service is worth more to him than the initial apparent savings in fees. If he goes for the cheap fees, thn you can take some consolation in knowing that he will pay for it in aggravation and constantly arguing over the inevitable extra charges that always seem to bring those cheap fees up (at least on construction projects).

If you have gotten a pretty clear indication that the other surveyor has proposed something illegal, you may be warranted in requesting that surveyor’s proposal. As a profession, we are all and each obligated to police it. But proceed with great caution. Are you looking into something that is unethical in a legal sense, or is it something that violates your sense of what is good practice? Be certain that you know the difference before you spout off to the client about it.

If you have already submitted your proposal, and if you have very good reason to suspect something unethical about the other surveyor’s proposal, ask to look at what that surveyor offered to do for the client. Scan through it, looking for what is there that states a service in violation. If there is something illegal about it, then contact the other surveyor, the local PPC, or BPELS, as you see fit. If what you see only violates what you consider to b good practice, but does not clearly violate the law, simply state to the client that you don’t clearly see anything illegal, but that wouldn’t do it that way. If you think that some violation, while not being clearly described, will likely show up in the work product, then do as Dave suggested, if the client goes with the other surveyor, follow up some months later to see how it went and ask to see the work product.

But if you do these things, proceed with caution. Know the law well, understand the difference between illegal activity and poor but legal practice, and ensure that your own house is kept in order. If you handle it poorly, you may end up being the target of someone, or several someones looking to make retaliatory complaints against you.


The only time that I was in a position to see a competitor’s proposal for a project we were going to propose on was about 17 years ago, before I was licensed. A good and regular client had been talking to our principals about a new development project he had coming up. He provided us with the proposal just given to him by another local firm.

The LS director was very uncomfortable with this, saying that it was an ethical breach that could endanger his license. Our engineering director, who was also the principal in charge of our branch office, told him to run with it and see if he could beat it (which pissed my boss off). This engineer was a lot like a stereotypical used car salesman (no offense to you engineers, just commenting on this guy’s character, or lack thereof).

The LS gave me the project info, less the proposal, and told me to come up with a scope and fee estimate. After I did this, he looked at it and agreed it was reasonable, then showed me the competitor’s. We had long suspected this particular competitor of cutting corners on service and using survey as a loss leader to get the entitlement, design, and construction management. The proposal I was looking at seemed to confirm that.

My boss then told me to cut our scope to the absolute minimum that I thought would be required to get the job done, and figure costs as if the whole job would run smooth from beginning to end. Our estimate was still much higher than the competitor’s.

The next day, our LS gave our engineer our first estimate and told him that was the best we could do. We felt pretty dirty while shaping our proposal with that other one in hand. But we felt somewhat redeemed in providing our honest proposal, and not at all bad in not getting the job. That client came back to us with their next project and didn’t bother with showing us anyone else’s proposal.

Since that time, I’ve had one or two clients offer to give me a competitor’s proposal ostensibly so that I could make sure that the client could compare “apples to apples”. I refused each time and told them to just call me if they had any questions about apparent differences, and I would explain why I incuded something or didn’t include something else.

I think that when a client offers this, it’s usually because they are simply price shopping and want you to have that monetary target to beat. It’s kind of like when you give a price of $5000 and they say “Schmoe said he’d do it for $3500. I’d really like for you to do it, but Schmoe’s price looks pretty good. Can you work with me on this?” IMO, it’s best to let this kind of client go elsewhere. Give them an honest proposal and fee that you’ve come up with on your own, then let them take it or leave it.

Do you think that reviewing another professional's proposal would fall under the scrutiny of the Board per PLS Act or Board Rules?
Would you consider it to be covered by the CLSA Code of Ethics?
Or would you consider it simply an unethical Business or personal practice.
I'm not really certain which you all are basing your ethics on in the above discussion.

I do not find anywhere that it is covered under the PLSA or Board Rules, but I do consider it a breach of common ethics. I would not be surprisd to find it addressed under some othr area of the law.

I have found where similar principles ar covered under artistic intellectual property, and under the sections covering the development of inventions, but have not found where other business communications are addressed.

I do believe that some other states address it under their ethics rules.

How often do you think your proposal is "shopped around"?

I'm sure I have prepared a few that required some research, a look at the property, and some preliminary (unpaid for) reconnaissance survey work.

After typing it up and sending it to the proposed client for signing I have never heard from them again.

At least they have something to show or tell another surveyor so the job gets done right!

I chalk it up to the nature of the business.

You had a bad memory. I have some too. I lose a proposal because I'm 2x the amount. Then I compete against the same firm and I'm 2X less. Go figure. I still loose because I get beat out by $350 by someone else. It was all fair and square because I read all four proposals. It simply came down to the estimate. Not much you can do about that.

The client was doing what he has a right to do in America, where there are free markets. Find a better price. I hate it too, but we all do it. If he thinks the quality is the same, then many times it comes down to cost. Hopefully you can retain clients because of the quality of your product and the good relationship.

However, ALL proposals submitted to public agancies are available for viewing per the freedom of information act. I can guarantee you that it's a common practice.

I call clients all the time to discuss the scopes they give to me. Many times it changes because I called. What if my competitor didn't ever call and just used what he was given as the scope? Now I get selected and he wonders why? So he calls and asks. My client (now) tells him that we were cheaper. Why? "Eric called and said we don't need to _____________ and only need ____________ because of ____________." "So the scope is different?" "Yes". At this point the client has already signed a contract and it would be unethical to try and change his scope to match mine and get my client to go for his firm (Maybe, and I say maybe because the competitor isn't trying to bid against me, but simply match my scope). However, it's a valuable lesson.

1. Always make contact with the client (especailly public entities) and discuss the scope.

2. Do a follow up call BEFORE they select anyone to make sure that if your price is way out there (maybe you just messed up), you have a chance to change the scope before they decide who to go with. This is BEFORE the selection date. I've even had clients call me and say I'm way out there and can I lower the price? Is that unethical of them? Shouldn't they give me the scope of my competitor so I can see why my price is so much higher? Of course I was a lot higher because I got beat out by a Landscape Architect, but God forbid I see his proposal! It's all in good fun internet discussion though! ;)

Demanding to see a competitors proposal from a private entity is stupid, and I would never do it. Asking politely or just going over your and his/her together on the phone if you think that your scope is different is good business and very ethical. I mean, if you're clueless, you have a right to know!

This is more of an esoteric discussion since my original post (under temp posts) was a suggestion (though worded more like I've done it a thousand times) that Wilson should ask to see the proposal to see what was stated as a first glace to see if anything was illegal. Of course he would have to wait 90 days, and visit the site or see a plat and even speak with the other surveyor (or contact the PPC) to see if anything illegal was really done. Maybe he was staking an easement line! Apparently half of us think that O.K. and the other half don't. I digress.

Typically if I call to see who was chosen, I won't even get a name of the firm (which I like to do to see if they are licensed- which I didn't from the Landscape "Surveyor".) and if I do then I'll ask if our scope is the same. That's about as far as I've ever taken it.

Eric,

I agree with most of what you last posted. Win some, lose some. That's the nature of business, and sometimes there is little you can do legitimately to change it.

In almost all public project consultant selections, it's a very open process as a matter of law, so that's not the focus of this thread.

You explained how you normally go about honing your scope to meet a client's needs, and that's exactly the way you should do it. You communicate directly with the client, asking pertinent questions, through your expertise, helping him to identify his true needs.

But then you start going off in a different direction in your point #2. It is you, not the client, who is tasked with understanding and following the ethics of your profession. I'm not wanting to put the focus of the question on the ethics of the client offering the competitor's proposal, but on the professional's either accepting it or asking for it, and the conditions under which that may be OK and those under which it isn't.

Using another's proposal to write a better one in order to win the contract is unarguably unethical. If your purpose is to ensure that you have identified the proper scope and to convince the client that you have done so, you do that through the direct contact you described just before and in your point #1. That is also the most effective way to do that.


"Asking politely or just going over your and his/her together on the phone if you think that your scope is different is good business and very ethical."

That depends. Are you talking about asking the other professional to go over it with you, or are you asking the client to provide a copy of that proposal?

Again, we write our proposals for the purpose of standing out among any competition there may be for the project, not for the purpose of educating the competition. We all know the rules are different for public contracts and that the information becomes public as soon as we submit it. But with private contracts, many if not most of us consider that information to be a private communication between us and our clients. Not in the sense of privileged in the legal sense, but private nonetheless.

So reviewing the winning proposal with the other professional's client is an act of questionable ethics, at best. If you're talking about asking the other professional if they would be willing to review it with you for your educational benefit, there is nothing unethical about that. Some might think such a request takes a lot of nerve or be somewhat upset by the request, taking offense that a competitor would ask them to take the time to educate, to their possible detriment of their future business. But others may be willing to do so. I might, depending upon who is doing the asking.


"I mean, if you're clueless, you have a right to know!"

No, you don't. If you are clueless, that is a good reason why you shouldn't get such a project until you've gained a few clues. You have a right to try to find out what you're missing, but only from those who are willing to educate you, not indirectly from those who are not willing. If you go get a copy of a business communication that was not meant for you, and the person who wrote it has not given their permission for you to have it, then you make them your unwilling educator.

If you think that you might be missing something, find someone you respect who has been successful with such projects, and ask them if they would be willing to look at your unsuccessful proposal and give you some advice to improve it for your next opportunity for such a project.


Calling the prospective client who did not hire you to find out why he didn't may be a good way to tune up your presentation. You can ask "Was it the fee amount?", "Did the company you hired offer a different level of service?" (there's those scope differences), and if the answers to your previous questions raise suspicion "Is the person you hired a licensed surveyor?"

If this conversation raises a strong indication of something illegal, you may then be warranted in asking for the winning proposal. But tell the client why you're asking for it, that it is in their best interest. But I would caution against doing so for just a weak suspicion or a gut feeling of something untoward.

If word were to get out that you were getting copies of your competitor's private business communications without going through them, you would soon begin to lose the trust and respect of your colleagues with whom you compete.