California Surveyors Forums

This is my situation. I have a overlay job in a city in LA County. The grinds take place near the gutter and one inch of pavement is to be placed over the whole street.

Many intersections have nothing visible at the surface, but there may be, and probably is in many cases something below the surface of record or not of record. There may or may not be ties to the intersection, but there might be a spike and washer, or record or not, two inches below the pavement and covered.

The monument is already covered with asphalt. There is no hole in the asphalt created by another surveyor looking for this point, and finding it.

Section 8771 says in part........."perpetuate their location if any monument could be............COVERED, or otherwise obliterated..........."

Since these monuments are already covered by asphalt, they will not be disturbed or obliterated or destroyed, is it lawful or unlawful to pave over these monuments with another inch of pavement without finding them and perpetuating their position?

As a land surveyor, I think I should search for these guys, dig em up, set ties and CR and come back later and set something at the surface. I think that is the "proper thing" to do as a land surveyor and goes to the spirit of the law. (As a side note, I also get paid on a "per monument perpetuated" fee schedule.)

This is how I have done them in the past, but most of the time a grind came into play at the position or very close to the position of the covered monuments. I can sell that, no problem.

The city has taken, at least initialy, a "I don't care attitude. We leave that up to the general contractor to follow all the laws pertaining to the work. If he doesn't follow the law, the city jumps all over him." Well I don't want the general to get into trouble either except that he and the city figure there are only 10 monuments out there(that they could see) and I figure that there could be about 40. Huge difference in the budget for surveying, but not for the ac pavement quantities.

What do you folks think? I am waiting with baited breath.

§8771(b) states that monuments "shall be...referenced...prior to the time that any streets...are improved, reconstructed, maintained, resurfaced, or relocated..." Your project is going to resurface the street, ergo §8771 pertains.

From a philosophical perspective, even though your project isn't going to be the first one to hinder access to the monuments, it's certainly going to make access more difficult by adding more pavement. That's one of the situations that §8771(b) was designed to address.

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I'm thinking that the law pertains to "monuments of record"
I dont think the authors intended for us or anyone to be clarevoyant in "seeing" points under concrete or pavement.

When we are involved in one of these "monument resoration jobs" we do a willy-nilly fly by each intersection and shoot any nails we see that arent of record. After a project download, i anylize these points to see if they fit anything, or are just construction offsets for underground.

As far as the record monuments, they go into the normal cor-rec process.
These often have to be "dug" for . . .

Now whatta U do with record mons that have been destroyed by sewer or storm lines ? can swing ties to a manhole lid be sufficient ?

"Good"

Find all forty or more and tie 'em out! Bill 'em big time!

And when they're done, replace 'em and file Corner Records. And bill 'em some more!

(It's my understanding that the county of Los Angeles would rather not have pre-construction ties filed if the points are going to be replaced right away with new monuments and final Corner Records filed.)

When the contractor and city get serious about this stuff they will learn that if they can't afford to tie out the survey points they can't afford to do the paving.

really weird how I can read and re-read and re-read fooooreeeevvvver something like section 8771, and miss the point that Frame stated. And it's written right thar in the black part of the page. It's not like I have to look too far for it.

Thank you Jim for you timely response. And thank you Dave for your encouraging comments and useful information regarding the LA Co. Surveyors office.

If there is anyone else out there who would like to add to my sometimes empty brain, I would appreciate it.

I've also noticed that in LA County. Generally the CR will state "Found such and such monument and ties per PWFB XXX/XXX - "such and such" destroyed by construction, reset with "such and such" per ties. See sketch on sheet two.

They usually just file one record for Pre and post ties.

OC usually does it with two separate CR's (A and B). So if you're researching an intersection in OC and only get a CR with an A at the end, then there is a chance that the street was recently under construction.

This is a real common issue right now, because so many cities and counties are performing overlays with stimulus funding. Greg connected with many issues, and the bottom line is the municipalities do not understand or care about survey monuments.
Section 8771 is very clear on what the agency is suppose to do (per the Business and Professions Code, State of California), "a suitable monument box placed thereon". By that standard, I would say they are responsible to set standard street monument, because how do you set a monument box for a railroad spike, iron pipe, or other original controling monument.

I feel the critical issue here is what is shown on a file map and how critical is the monument? Is it an original point from a subdivision point, or just a calculated point established by a second surveyor. This is where you have to become a salesman to convince the government agency how critical the point is. Land value that protects the homeowner is a good avenue, but if you have a stubborn government official who doesn't understand surveying to begin with, you will have your hands full.

When the stimulus funding was getting started, the County Surveyor here in San Mateo County sent out an e-mail reminding all City Engineers to perpetuate all survey monuments. If they do it is another story, and I would be very surprised. In fact there is one City Engineer who hates surveyors chiesling holes in his AC to recover original monuments, and this town is the most expensive property in the state. He truly is looking out for his residence.

This topic is where we continue to be surveyors, but turn the hat around and become educators, to the government agencies.

Good luck because we all have been in this situation in the past, and it will only get worse as there is less funding within the different agencies.

It's a continuous and ongoing challenge to remind and educate the engineers who manage overlays to get monuments into their mindset. Not being in the "big city" we don't get a lot of mystery nails that fall near intersections, so don't treat those as "monuments", but we start with the drive-by, and research for monuments that may have been paved over from years past, and take the opportunity to now get them to the surface with a monument well & lid. Good point on the extra activity happening due to the stimulus funds. It's an opportunity to call your local city engineer or county surveyor and remind them of the importance of protecting/perpetuating monuments.

Dave Ryan
Humboldt County

From a recnt letter to an agency that told me to "abandon" a well monument found in the way of new construction:


First, your own General Note 5 of Sheet 2 of 6 of the PROJECT NAME OMMITTED Project Plans reads:

THE CONTRACTOR SHALL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROTECTION OF ALL EXISTING MONUMENTS AND OTHER SURVEY MARKERS ON THE JOBSITE.

Additionally, §8771(b) of the Professional Land Surveyors Act (California Business and Professions Code) states:

§8871 (b) When monuments exist that control the location of subdivisions, tracts, boundaries, roads, streets, or highways, or provide horizontal or vertical survey control, the monuments shall be located and referenced by or under the direction of a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer prior to the time when any streets, highways, other rights-of-way, or easements are improved, constructed, reconstructed, maintained, resurfaced, or relocated, and a corner record or record of survey of the references shall be filed with the county surveyor. THEY SHALL BE RESET IN THE SURFACE OF THE NEW CONSTRUCTION, A SUITABLE MONUMENT BOX PLACED THEREON, OR PERMANENT WITNESS MONUMENTS SET TO PERPETUATE THEIR LOCATION IF ANY MONUMENT COULD BE DESTROYED, DAMAGED, COVERED, OR OTHERWISE OBLITERATED, AND A CORNER RECORD OR RECORD OF SURVEY FILED WITH THE COUNTY SURVEYOR PRIOR TO THE RECORDING OF A CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION FOR THE PROJECT. Sufficient controlling monuments shall be retained or replaced in their original positions to enable property, right-of-way and easement lines, property corners, and subdivision and tract boundaries to be reestablished without devious surveys necessarily originating on monuments differing from those that currently control the area. It shall be the responsibility of the governmental agency or others performing construction work to provide for the monumentation required by this section. It shall be the duty of every land surveyor or civil engineer to cooperate with the governmental agency in matters of maps, field notes, and other pertinent records. Monuments set to mark the limiting lines of highways, roads, streets or right-of-way or easement lines shall not be deemed adequate for this purpose unless specifically noted on the corner record or record of survey of the improvement works with direct ties in bearing or azimuth and distance between these and other monuments of record. (emphasis mine)

Further, §732.5, §1492.5, §1810.5 of the California Streets and Highways Codes state:

Survey monuments shall be preserved, referenced, or replaced pursuant to Section 8771 of the Business and Professions Code.

Finally, §605 of the California Penal Code states:

Every person who either:
1. Maliciously removes any monument erected for the purpose of designating any point in the boundary of any lot or tract of land, or a place where a subaqueous telegraph cable lies; or,
2. Maliciously defaces or alters the marks upon any such monument; or,
3. Maliciously cuts down or removes any tree upon which any such marks have been made for such purpose, with intent to destroy such marks;
--Is guilty of a misdemeanor.

I respectfully request that you reconsider your decision and authorize the work necessary to maintain the integrity of the Public Land Survey System and of this significant monument. Based on previously published decision by the California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors, at a minimum, Corner Records must be prepared and filed prior to any construction work as well as after the work when the monument has been re-established or rehabilitated.


BTW, remember that "corner" and "monument" are NOT synonymous, even though we surveyor-types use the two interchangeably. A monument marks the location of a corner but need not be set at the position for the corner to do so. Think Witness Monument for those times when a monument cannot physically be placed at the corner.

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So Bruce what do you do if you find a monument at the surface and they overlay it a tenth.

Can you set a durable monument over the old monument?

Do you dig up the point putting a hole in the new asphalt to show the monument?

Do you just tie the monument out and file CR saying monument is covered up with new asphalt?

I currently have the same problem and was hoping to hear from other surveyors on how to handle it. By the way the engineer said if it hasn't been dug up in 30 years it will more than likely never be dug up. Adding more asphalt just preserves it more.

there is a big OR in 8771. "They shall be reset in the surface of the new construction, a suitable monument box placed thereon, OR permanent witness monuments set to perpetuate their location........"

Granted, the spike that I set, if I do, would only be an inch long. That's if the found monument is flush with the surface and a one inch cap is placed. Is that durable? Normally I wouldn't think that it would be, except for the fact I have found concrete nails and tags that were in the ground over 20 years, and the nail was only an inch and a quarter long.

Some surveyors think that a 1 1/2 inch pk and tag set in ac is durable. The only reason I know that is that I have pulled some up just to see what it was.

I have set them like that in the past. I have also removed the pavement and placed concrete and a nail and tag in the ac, which I don't think lasts as long.

Now if the monument was below the surface an inch or two, I can go with a longer mag spike and washer, which works very well.

As to the monument not being uncovered in 30 years, that it probably won't EVER be uncovered, I wouldn't want to have to explain that to the ALJ or the JPPC. And how do I know that it hasn't been uncovered in the last 30 years?
Some guy coulda dug it up, used it, filled the hole up with dirt, and put an ac patch on the top with a concrete nail at the surface. How do I #$%#$^@ know.

Is uncovering the monuemnt prior to an overlay going to make surveying restablishment easier-facile-or will it just add another cost to this project?
At least if someone digs it out, it will be visible, at the surface, and he can't say I didn't know it was there cause it was buried.

I don't write these laws.

PS. I'll probably set a 1 and a quarter inch pk and washer at the surface with ties in the curb, if the monument was found flush. I'll use something longer if it was found below the existing surface.

I haven't had real good luck using 1 inch or inch and a 1/4 mag nails and washers. They seem to "lift up" or rise from the ac. Set some 2 foot tangent over ties using the mags and I come back a year or so later and a few of them were gone and the others "lifted". Pk's seem to stand the test of time, at least from what I have seen.

"As to the monument not being uncovered in 30 years, that it probably won't EVER be uncovered, I wouldn't want to have to explain that to the ALJ or the JPPC."

I've done several monument preservation projects for Yolo County. In these contracts, the County Surveyor identified the corners -- generally section or 1/4 section corners, all in public roads -- that he wanted preserved based upon record map data and/or field inspection. This is essentially the same work as would be needed for a road reconstruction project.

Many of these monuments hadn't seen the light of day in decades, so the first phase of the field work was to expose them. This often involved digging down as much as 2-1/2 feet. Each found monument was tied out and evaluated for condition. If it was in good shape, stable and deep enough, it'd be left as-is and a monument well installed around it. If it was too close to the surface, loose or badly deteriorated it'd be replaced with a standard county capped pipe in concrete in a well.

That's the level of effort I'd expect in any monument preservation project. Expensive? Sure, but well worth the effort, in my opinion.

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You surprise me. Read the post again....
carefully this time!!!

I think the section is a little weak. I was taken off a project because I insisted that it was up the surveyor or pre 82 engineer who was in responsible charge to make the determination as to which monuments needed to be preserved somehow 100 year old curb cuts that were of record just did not seem to qualify as monuments in the mind of the project engineer.

Oh I agree with you guys on this monument preservation stuff. It is funny how the public and it agencies think about surveying. It is a nuisance to them. We must educate them every day.

Thanks Bruce on the info. We are having trouble with some of the pk and washers staying in the pavement, so just wondering how others are handling this situation.

for that pdf. I am going to copy that puppy and keep it in the truck.

Thanks David, as mentioned, that Board Opinion is priceless!
Copy made and pdf saved! Now this brings up an idea for a new thread.

Thanks Dave I have printed out the pdf and put it in truck.

setting a monument directly above the found monument in this overlay project(remember some of these will be only one inch below the finished surface of the new pavement), I could set 4-two foot tangent over spike(durable) and washer ties to the covered monument.

Set the ties at 45 degrees to the centerline, so that hopefully no one jumps on them for line. That way the city gets 4 monumnets for the price of one.

to search and locate monuments that are not "part of the scope". After this, I will send RFI's to the general contractor asking if he wants me to locate these things and suggest strongly that he forward my RFI to the city so that they can also make a determination regarding my request.

We shall see what happens. I have a battery powered Mikata hammer drill, chipping drill that cuts through pavement relatively easily. This is great if I get a reading with my metal detector. When I was young the only pipe finder my dad had was a shovel, digging bar and pick.

It is so much easier digging in pavement now, than it used to be.

Jim Roepel LS7289 wrote:If you can uncover them with five of six wacks with a hammer and chisel, and there are at least 4 ties of record, do it. A small chipping hammer and Honda generator pays for itself real quick in labor costs and restful nights of sleep.

I'd like to learn your method to uncover points in five or six wacks through pavement? Maybe I should play the game "Wack a Mole" more often at the arcade with my nephew for practice, lol.

The Board addressed this years ago with a letter that was sent to every municipality. They pursued charges against the City of San Diego City Engineer and they went after the City Engineer of Coronado for refusing to comply with the law. The problem arose when these cities started installing handicap ramps. I have a rather large file on Coronado including some extensive communications with their City Engineer.
In the City of San Diego case, a client paid me several thousand dollars to establish their property lines and set monuments and file a Record of Survey. Three weeks later, in spite of our protests, the city came though and destroyed and paved over the markers. They were six inches below AC. We were paid to uncover them and the new AC overlay had a bunch of holes up and down the street. We tried to patch them but the holes were too big. The City of SD took the hit and had to deal with it.
I can scan the Coronado one when I return to the office. The Board was going after licenses down there.
I hope this helps.

this is very good. I am starting to save all the neat stuff that has been attached in various threads, for further reference and the possible future delivery to the appropriate entities, whether they be contractors, land owners, or governmental employees.

I have been on the project now since the 13th and have found most of the monuments to be at the surface, usually a punched cut spike(flat head and kinda rectangular) and tin for the "older" tracts and subdivisions, sometimes just the spike cause the tin is rusted away. They fit the existing ties reasonably well, most of the time.

Some are a tenth or two below the surface, and I am not sure how many will be ground out. A few of the streets have a full width grind, instead of just at the edges, and monuments will be cut out.

About 15 or 20 of the centerline intersections and radius points in the cul de sacs are punched manhole rims that will be covered, then uncovered and raised to the surface. Most of the centerline intersections and radius points have ties set in the curbs and referenced at the city or a CR at the county. The ties aren't perfect, but curbs move, or can over time.

The "newer" parcel maps and record of surveys have spike and tagged washers and are referenced, but without ties that can be found at the city or county. These are usually found somewhere mid-block. I am at about 60 monuments right now and I am about 2/3 done.

I am about 2 or 3 days ahead of the grinder now, they move fast. It will probably take me 3 or 4 days to finish up the field work for the first paragraph in 8771(b). I started locating this stuff 2 days after they started grinding, so I am playing ketchup, and it is working okay.

PS: and another thing. According to the contractor the city has agreed to pay for the monuments that "control the construction of the street" - intersections, bcs, ecs, angle points. The other points out there, tract boundaries, parcel map boundaries, RS boundaries are not part of the agreement that the contractor has with the city. That's what they say. We shall see.