California Surveyors Forums

We are doing a road widening project for a city which consists of curb, gutter & sidewalk installation and additional right-of-way acquisition. The street is in an older part of town and the only maps of record are the original subdivision map, a subsequent parcel map for one of the lots and a couple of unrecorded surveys. The other old lots were subdivided by deed to create the parcels as they exist now. Most of the deeds do not describe the lot lines/deed lines at right angles to the R.O.W. The old map does not show any bearings. The street has a centerline monument at the west end, but nothing at the east end. We found five iron pipes at/near front corners. Three of the iron pipes are at/near lot corners and the other two are at/near deed corners. We used these pipes and the centerline monument to establish the street alignment. The iron pipes are shown only on the unrecorded surveys. They will be destroyed by construction as they will fall in the flow line of the new curb and gutter. Since we cannot re-set them in the original location, it would make sense to set them at the new R.O.W. line. Two questions:
Since two of the iron pipes are at/near the deed corners (not a lot corner), would this require a Record of Survey?
Would we need to survey the lots (and possibly the entire block) in order to establish the bearing of the lot or deed lines?
We used these iron pipes only for alignment of the road did not perform property surveys to verify their location, though they do fit occupation and record distances very good.

IMO by using non-record monuments to establish a C/L alignment, you are entering RS territory. The only records relating those monuments to the CL, presumably, are the unrecorded surveys.

8771 (b) is appropriate here: "(b) When monuments exist that control the location of subdivisions, tracts, boundaries, roads, streets, or highways, or provide horizontal or vertical survey control, the monuments shall be located and referenced by or under the direction of a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer prior to the time when any streets, highways, other rights-of-way, or easements are improved, constructed, reconstructed, maintained, resurfaced, or relocated, and a corner record or record of survey of the references shall be filed with the county surveyor. They shall be reset in the surface of the new construction, a suitable monument box placed thereon, or permanent witness monuments set to perpetuate their location if any monument could be destroyed, damaged, covered, or otherwise obliterated, and a corner record or record of survey filed with the county surveyor prior to the recording of a certificate of completion for the project. Sufficient controlling monuments shall be retained or replaced in their original positions to enable property, right-of-way and easement lines, property corners, and subdivision and tract boundaries to be reestablished without devious surveys necessarily originating on monuments differing from those that currently control the area. It shall be the responsibility of the governmental agency or others performing construction work to provide for the monumentation required by this section. It shall be the duty of every land surveyor or civil engineer to cooperate with the governmental agency in matters of maps, field notes, and other pertinent records. Monuments set to mark the limiting lines of highways, roads, streets or right-of-way or easement lines shall not be deemed adequate for this purpose unless specifically noted on the corner record or record of survey of the improvement works with direct ties in bearing or azimuth and distance between these and other monuments of record.

In reading Section 8762 PLS Act, it is pretty clear you need to file a record of survey.

You say "The old map does not show any bearings." and "We used these pipes and the centerline monument to establish the street alignment."

Right there falls under 8762(b)(4)

Are you setting new street monuments at the intersections too?

Section 8771(a) states, "Monuments set shall be sufficient in number and durability and efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed, . . . "

So you will be using an existing monument at one end, but what are you setting to establish your centerline or monument line to stake the project? I read that your control line should be tied to a monument line, thus it behooves all to set a new street monument at the opposite end of the project to readily re-trace the established centerline or monument line.

Being a public project, you are not obligated to survey private property lines, because property lines are a civil case between property owners.

My 0.02

If you are not determining sidelines, how will you know that your placement of the new irons will be correct when you replace them at the RW?

Not that I have a good solution short of determining the sidelines. Perhaps ties to the previous positions and a good detailed narrative on the RS will cover it.

We are staking a road widening project with nearly the same situation. We did not perform the ROW work for the roadway, but we are to perpetuate the side line monuments obliterated by the construction. I plan to file corner records showing how the monuments were “rebuiltâ€￾, using swing ties we set to perpetuate them. I see corner records frequently that show no-record monuments perpetuated in this way. Does this really trigger an ROS? I doubt it because we did not establish anything.

If we moved the monuments out further to the new sideline, I think that would trigger an ROS because we would probably be retracing a deed in order to establish the positions. However, I can imagine a scenario where the new monuments were shown on a corner record as an “offsetâ€￾. In our case, all of the monuments can be replaced in their original positions, so I can avoid that problem.

something with this scenario but here I go anyway.

1. Does your survey disclose material evidence or physical change regarding the finding of these "deed" monuments which doesn't show up anywhere. If the finding of these monuments constitute "physical change" then yes, you file. If it doesn't, which I think many surveyors would say(just guessing here) then no. The finding of the pipes in and of themselves do not constitute material evidence unless they are way out of wack.

2. Does your survey disclose a material discrepency in the position of lines or points or dimensions. Sounds like it doesn't.

3. It sounds like there is no evidence that might result in materially alternate positions of line or points shown on any map.

4. You haven't established anything but what is shown on the old subdivision map-the centerline of the road. But it sounds like you are establishing a "NEW SIDELINE OR RIGHT OF WAY LINE".

5. You haven't set any points or lines on any parcel described that doesn't appear on any map. YOU FOUND THE POINTS.

So it sounds like item number 4 might be the kicker requiring the filing of a RS. Maybe finding the unrecorded pipes at the corners of the deed lines "might" require this, but I could go both ways with this one.

Now you might get stuck with 8765(d) when a RS is not required. "When a survey is a retracement of lines...................and SUFFICIENT MONUMENTATION IF FOUND to establish the precise location for any property corners thereon,.........." Do you have sufficient monumentation or not? I know that you are not reestablishing property corners, but you are reestablishing property lines i.e. the old right of way.

As for resetting them at the new r/w. You don't have to. It would be nice, but just reset them where they used to be, either in the sidewalk or curb or ac pavement. Let some other guy figure out the direction to the rear line.

So let me know what I am missing.

bruce hall wrote:something with this scenario but here I go anyway.

1. Does your survey disclose material evidence or physical change regarding the finding of these "deed" monuments which doesn't show up anywhere. If the finding of these monuments constitute "physical change" then yes, you file. If it doesn't, which I think many surveyors would say(just guessing here) then no. The finding of the pipes in and of themselves do not constitute material evidence unless they are way out of wack.

2. Does your survey disclose a material discrepency in the position of lines or points or dimensions. Sounds like it doesn't.

3. It sounds like there is no evidence that might result in materially alternate positions of line or points shown on any map.

4. You haven't established anything but what is shown on the old subdivision map-the centerline of the road. But it sounds like you are establishing a "NEW SIDELINE OR RIGHT OF WAY LINE".

5. You haven't set any points or lines on any parcel described that doesn't appear on any map. YOU FOUND THE POINTS.

So it sounds like item number 4 might be the kicker requiring the filing of a RS. Maybe finding the unrecorded pipes at the corners of the deed lines "might" require this, but I could go both ways with this one.

Now you might get stuck with 8765(d) when a RS is not required. "When a survey is a retracement of lines...................and SUFFICIENT MONUMENTATION IF FOUND to establish the precise location for any property corners thereon,.........." Do you have sufficient monumentation or not? I know that you are not reestablishing property corners, but you are reestablishing property lines i.e. the old right of way.

As for resetting them at the new r/w. You don't have to. It would be nice, but just reset them where they used to be, either in the sidewalk or curb or ac pavement. Let some other guy figure out the direction to the rear line.

So let me know what I am missing.

1. No material discrepancy. They fit record dimensions really well and occupation lines.

2. No.

3. Nope.

4. Yes, we are establishing a new R/W based on the existing R/W and center line, which was established using the iron pipes.

5.The iron pipes will be destroyed with construction and need to be replaced per 8771(b). Would a nail and tag in the flow line of the gutter be a sufficient monument? I realize we don't have to set them on the new R/W, although it seems to be the best thing to do. however, I feel we would need to show how we established the lot lines because every property owner and surveyor in the future will consider them to be property corners and not merely witness corners to the old pipes.

and tag in the gutter is fine in my brain.

Now if you file a CR on these guys and let everyone know where they are in relation to the centerline that you have established. Also show a distance easterly from the west end of your job. It would sound to me that you are okay just like that(excluding the new r/w issue).

Now from a business standpoint. If you can get reimbursed for the RS, why not survey the block? It would be better for everyone. But if not, I would say that you perpetuated the found monuments at the "property corners"(or whatever you want to call them) pusuant to section 8765(d).

If anyone comes along and finds these perpetuations, they can decide for themselves if they are worth anything.

Now the very BEST THING TO DO is to file the RS by surveying the world, re-establishing the the new right of way, lot lines, deed lines, get paid for it, and the next surveyor in will have a much easier time of it, which in theory, should make it easier on the landowners of the block.

Thanks for the all the comments.

[quote="Murphey - We used these iron pipes only for alignment of the road did not perform property surveys to verify their location, though they do fit occupation and record distances very good. "]


You mention occupation fits with possible deed pipes. It would be proper to map the location of occupation also. Since you don't know what came first, occupation should be considered a monument and should show on a ROS. You have no idea what might be better evidence and it should be preserved, by mapping on a ROS. Even if you had done a complete ROS and opined that the pipe is the deed corner, I feel you should map and dimension the occupation so future surveyors will know what existed prior to the construction.

I located a copy of the claim form and process I used when the federal government destroyed one of my markers. I failed a claim under the "Federal Tort Claims Act" for compensation as the Border Patrol destroyed one of the markers I set for a client. They paid it.

In San Diego, the claim process involves submission of a claim to the Risk Management Department. Most claims against a municipality go through the claims department first. if they deny the claim you can then file an action for recovery. If an agency destroys one of my markers, I force them to replace it or to pay me to replace it. Small claims court is a great place to file an action like this as it is usually under the small claims court limits.

Attached is the documentation for both.

Thanks Mike, I am in the process of resetting my front property corners which were torn out as part of sidewalk replacement for tree root uplift. The City did not tie them out and reset them after construction. This info helps.

Good luck!

I have always gotten satisfaction by pressing. Good luck!

"We used these pipes and the centerline monument to establish the street alignment. The iron pipes are shown only on the unrecorded surveys."

8762 (b) (1) Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in
part does not appear on any subdivision map, official map, or record
of survey previously recorded or properly filed in the office of the
county recorder or county surveying department.

You used the pipes as evidence, they do not appear on a properly filed map.

File a Record of Survey.