California Surveyors Forums

We are doing a boundary survey of Lot 12 Tr 39468, MB 944/10-14, see attached map. We cannot find any monument within that tract, no CL tie notes either. City said it's not the their responsibility to set them, despite sighting 8771. City asked to contact the engineer who prepared the map and hung up.
Any advise please?

They were probably set, just not perptuated.

After all, it was thirty years ago!

Go out and dig up their streets looking for them.

Thanks Dave.
There is no ties notes either. In the event that we found something,(we digged too, nothing found) we still need to submit record monument notes when we file CR.
I have a feeling that the original engineer who prepare the map did not set them. In this connection, does the City needs to comply with 8771?

No straddlers detected either I take it? This of course depends on how well they maintain their roads, which in your case would be good if they are lacking.

My second thought was, did the City require a bond for setting the moinuments? If they accepted the money to set them because the original subdivider didn't, then I would call them on their responsibility.

If they were never set, then 8771 does not apply, IMO. The first three words of 8771 (b) are "When monuments exist..." If monuments never existed then what are the city, or someone else, supposed to perpetuate?

Does it suck? Yeah!!

Looks like you'll have to rebuild the streets from the exterior monuments found on the boundary as shown on the map.

I also agree with Dave L about the bond situation.

I don't see that the map says it set anything but nail and tag at the street centerline, B.C.'a, E.C.'s, etc. and 2" monuments along the tract boundary. The swing ties would be just to the nails? I see no statement as to setting the lot corners, so is a Corner Record the proper tool? The nails are probably long gone and I would try the firm that made the map if the City can't find the tie notes.

Boundaryman,

Have you contacted other surveyors who have done corner records in the area? Two are attached. There are numerous other CRs done in this tract and some of the CRs make reference to centerline tie notes and found centerline monumentation.

You can find the other CRs in the area at our website:

http://gis.dpw.lacounty.gov/website/fie ... viewer.asp

Need to zoom into your location. Feel free to call me at 626 458-4900 if I can be of additional assistance. I am the Deputy County Surveyor and we do contract subdivision map checking for the city. I would be happy to make a friendly agency to agency inquiry about their centerline tie note records.

I am surprised in seeing this that it was done as recent as 1980 and proper street monuments in a cast iron sleeve and cover were not required. I also cannot seem to find where in the legend it say was "s and t" means. I assume spike and tag?

Note that the final map recorded prior to the last ordinance revision date of 9-22-1980 for these purtanant section of the local ordinance relative to monumentation, centerline ties and surveys.

Sec. 20-33. Surveys.

The procedure and practice of all survey work done on any division of land, whether for preparation of a final map or parcel map, shall conform to the standards and details set forth in chapter 15, division 3, of the Business and Professions Code, the Land Surveyor's Act. The allowable error of closure on any portion of a final map or parcel map shall be a minimum of 1/10,000.
In the event that the county engineer, county road commissioner, the state highway engineer, or any city engineer shall have established the center line of any street or alley in or adjoining a division of land, the final map or parcel map shall show such center line, together with reference to a field book or map showing such center line and the monuments which determine its position. If determined by ties, that fact shall be stated upon the final map or parcel map. Monuments shall be found, set or reset for final maps and parcel maps at least at the following locations, except no additional monuments need to be set for parcel maps prepared from record data:
(a) At all angle points and beginnings and ends of curves on the exterior boundaries of the subdivision or division of land.
(b) At all angle points and beginnings and ends of curves on the exterior boundaries of any and all land dedicated or offered for dedication in fee simple for park or open space purposes.
(c) At the intersections of center lines of streets and at all angle points and beginnings and ends of curves on street center lines.
For each center line intersection monument set, the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey has been made shall furnish to the city engineer a set of notes showing clearly the ties between such monument and at least four (4) durable distinctive reference points or monuments. Such reference points or monuments may be leads and tacks in sidewalks, or two-inch iron pipe set back of the curbline and below the surface of the ground, or such substitute therefor approved by the city engineer as appears likely not to be disturbed. The set of center line tie notes shall be filed with the city engineer within three (3) months of the date required for setting monuments as shown by certification on the final map.
Such set of notes shall be of such quality, form and completeness and shall be on paper of such quality and size as may be necessary to conform to the standardized office records of the city engineer. All such notes shall be indexed and maintained by the city engineer as a part of the permanent records of the city engineer's office.
Whenever the city engineer has established the center line of a street or alley, such data shall be considered in making the surveys and in preparing the final map, and all monuments found shall be indicated and proper reference made to field books or maps of public record, relating to the monuments. If the points were reset by ties, that fact shall be stated.
City boundaries crossing or adjoining the subdivision or division of land shall be clearly designated and tied in on the final map.
All boundary monuments shall be set prior to recordation of the final map unless extensive grading operations or improvement work makes it impractical to set monuments. If the setting of boundary monuments is deferred, field notes showing the boundary survey shall be submitted with the final map for checking. Interior street center line monuments may be set subsequent to recordation of the final map. The final map shall show which monuments are in place and which are to be set. Prior to approval of the final map by the city council, the subdivider shall submit a written agreement in which he agrees that the monuments so deferred will be set within a specified time, and that the required notes will be furnished within a specified time.
At least one (1) exterior boundary line of the land being subdivided shall be adequately monumented or referenced before the final map is recorded.
(Ord. No. 1496, § 2, 9-22-80)


Sec. 20-64. Additional monuments.
Monuments for final maps shall be set, found or reset at all angle points and beginnings and ends of curves on the exterior boundary of the subdivision; at all angle points and beginnings and ends of curves on the exterior boundaries of any and all land dedicated or offered for dedication for parks or open spaces; and on the center line of all interior and exterior streets at intersections, tract boundaries, the beginnings and ends of curves, angle points, and the radius center of culs-de-sac.
(Ord. No. 1496, § 2, 9-22-80)

Sec. 20-65. Center line ties.
The engineer or surveyor under whose supervision center line monuments have been set, found or reset shall file with the city engineer a set of notes, conforming to the size and quality of the city engineer's standardized office records, showing clearly the ties between each monument and at least four (4) durable, distinctive reference points or monuments subject to the approval of the city engineer.
(Ord. No. 1496, § 2, 9-22-80)

Thank you Subman and all other responses.
We searched both the City and County records. No tract tie notes filed at all. Recorded map states mon "to be set" will be set within 12 mo. I would think, mon bond should already been collected to guarantee setting of mon.

Subman, per LA County code, at leaset todays standard, whenever CR is filed, one has to show how the FD mon are perpetuated. In this case, there is no record at all. I know the County will send back the CR without recording.
Subman, all City engineering staff are aware of this case. Anything you can help will be very much be appreciated. Thank you.

could mean a spike and tin. Although in the OC spike and tins gave way to spike and washers(stamped) sometime during the 70's, that's if my memory serves me correctly.

In the sixties, when I was in high school, I don't remember setting spike and washers, spike and tins-yes.

That's right I recall the little I worked down in SoCal, the word "tin" is more commonly used, whereas up here in the Bay Area "shiner" is the term instead.

Tin is probably the better word, since "shiner" gets a lot less shiny PDQ.

Don't be slammin "shinner" now......it's all over NorCal......and "tin" sounds cheap and ephemeral....LOL

Lee I notice the spelling of "shinner" with two "n's" is something I have seen on several maps. Is the term originally shinner and it morphed into shiner or are we just talking poor spelling?

We're talking typing at 4:03 in the morning........LOL

Believe it or not I see it spelled that way quite often.

Oh, and also, GET BACK TO BED.

Bryan,
A shiner is what a surveyor gets from an irate adjoining neighbor!

As for this topic, I hate seeing these issues arise. IMHO I feel it is still the agencies responsibility, since they were the responsible jurisdiction to sign off on the final map.

Subman, I was looking thru the PWFB and found the attached CR. The boundary for Lot 59 was re-established using only one FD mon. Is this allowed?

IIRC "ANY" survey needs two found monuments to establish a Basis of Bearing. And since this is a lot and block how do you justify establishing a lot using record data only.
I would have a long talk with the County Surveyor.

I think the JPPC should be talking to a couple of Surveyors too.

Your lot survey may turn into a RS establishing lots by splitting the curbs around the block.

Thank you land butcher, (Can you please define IIRC & JPPC?)
Another point on that same recorded PWFB1332-559 indicated FD 1" IP RCE22015. This mon was not set per Tr 39468. I think whoever having jurisdiction got to do something to protect the public.

IIRC - If I Remember Correctly
JPCC - Joint Professional Practices Committee

The JPCC can peer review survey "issues" before sending problems up to BPELS.

BoundaryMan

I don't oversee the checking of CR and ROSs, just tract/parcel maps. However, I doubt we would accept one found monument.

I agree something looks odd about that CR on its face. The curious thing is it appears the surveyor is showing (on the plat) record and measured distances for the CL course between the two curves at 324.41' record vs. 324.42' measured. These two points on the centerline were "to be set" after the map recorded. On the front of the corner record, it says he is using found centerline monuments and ties per the tract. Why he did not show the monuments he relied upon on the plat, I can't answer, but I believe that is what occured. He also found a 1" IP that was not set via the tract map. It may have been done via a survey before a CR was required. Remember, map recorded in 1980. Bottom line, I think he found 3 monuments.