California Surveyors Forums

I beleieve that this is the first time in a long time that so many listing have been posted looking to hire surveyors. Things turning around?

i hope so, Its been a frustrating three years. I worked hard to learn my profession, earn my LSIT and be on track to become a professional. I took pride in learning my craft, and wish I could demonstrate what I can do. I did take the time to go school and (almost) finish my degree (well, my AS at least) but i am ready to continue my career. i know there must be many more seasoned guys out there in worse situations due to the economy.

Personally I think it's just a little posturing for the upcoming spring. I really hope you are right about it maybe turning around. David, I am also waiting patiently for the chance to continue my career. Unfortunately at this rate I may never continue on to earn my LS#

I think it's a good sign, at least that people are feeling a bit more comfortable. Most people I know of have cut back to the bare minimums in anticipation of things getting worse, but are now starting to feel like we've bottomed out and are willing to pull on an extra hand or two so they can stop working 80 hour weeks.

I don't think this signals an upturn, particularly.

As soon as the Feds figure out their tax strategy then business will know what to do and then things will open up. But as long as the Feds sit around with their thumbs up their noses business is just going to sit on their money.

Well LB, that is the talking point. I do not buy it for a second. When you have lived through a few of these things and you see the same song and dance EVERY SINGLE TIME, it becomes less and less credible.

What we need is DEMAND, the taxes will sort themselves out.

Part of the creation of that demand, as I've said before, is that our services aren't encouraged or made a requirement in situations that they really should be. In the case of purchasing real property, people really should be encouraged by their realtor and the title company to get a survey done. The huge amount of problems that can potentially be left undiscovered is never brought up.

There are many situations that a survey should at least be strongly recommended, and several that it should be made a requirement.

Of course, this is an entirely different conversation.

The Ostrich Syndrome is prevalent in the real estate arena. Plenty of folks are nervous about their deals falling through, so that they would rather not know about a potential problem. It is a tough sell, that they should be proactive and find out problems before hand.

dmi Could be, the first one for me as a adult with family was in 1974.

that supply and demand will "sort themselves out" all by themselves. Taxes will not do that.

Providing goods and services that Lanny Lunchbucket can/ or is willing to pay for creates an economy. The regulating and taxing of this process usually increases the costs of these goods and services. This is very simplistic but I try to KISS.

Granted, I guess regulation and taxes are required to a certain extent. BORPELS and providing for a standing army being two examples. And there are a lot more. But more than likely there are a whole bunch of things that do not need to be funded by the tax payer regarding governmental regulation and services.

It costs more to try to find and convict welfare abusers than it is to just pay the scoundrels the blue money that they fraudulantley receive. The Beast has gotten way to big and hungry. Real Estate agents are not the only ones who have the Ostrich Syndrome.

I have no desire to demonize poor people and going after welfare cheats is silly(netting only peanuts) when there is plenty of low hanging fruit worth trillions in Iraq no bid contracts and the cozy Haliburton relationship and the handouts to millionaire farmers in the form of farm subsidies.

No doubt taxes and regulation adds costs. The real problem is that NO ONE WANTS TO PAY what it actually costs to deliver goods and services.
The fact is that part of the cost of any good or service comes from paying decent wages and benefits and infrastructure(rosdways,airports, internet) profits for the business owner, making sure we leave a livable enviornment behind after the whole thing is said and done.

I am not convinced that any of us would really want to live in a place where all the external costs for goods and service were not included.

This would be a place where the costs for goods and services were ARTIFICALLY LOW. This type of place is just not sustainable.

My point is, big business puts their money where it does them the most good. The way the feds tax business controls how and where business puts their money. Since the Feds have kept their tax strategies in limbo for the last 3 years business is sitting on billions of investment dollars waiting for the feds to set a tax strategy so business knows where to invest. It won't matter to us peons which way the feds go because just getting business money working will help us.
Naturally the best way out of a depression is to keep govt out of it and the economy will find it's own way out. Depressions don't do big business any good either.

The biggest issue right now is us buying $4 of goods from China and China buying $1 in return. And most of those chinese goods are made for USA business without labor, environmental, or safety controls.
As long as we keep buying goods from china and other 3rd world toilets we are contributing to more global pollution then if the EPA passed rules economically intelligently instead of their currant method like 3rd world dictators.
It's been proven that the western US is receiving airborne pollution from China, and China is opening a coal fired power plant every month and has plans to do so for years to come.
The sooner the American public realizes that the world is not a even playing field the better off we will be.
Innovation as out POTUS calls it is not profitable, you can sell a idea once, but you can sell a zillion widgets.

"I didn't cheat the govt taxpayers out of that much." Cheating is still cheating and it is not right. A little cheat here and a little cheat there multiplied by a whole bunch of cheats and you have got a really, really big cheat.

I agree that millionare farmers should not be paid for doing nothing. It is not right. I also believe that paying poor farmers to do nothing is not right as well. Don't know if that happens and it probably doesn't, but the government should not be paying anybody for doing nothing, and it is. And it is not right.

If "NO ONE WANTS TO PAY what it actually costs to deliver goods and services" well then maybe no one will receive those goods and services. And the folks who offer those goods and services will have to figure out something else to sell or provide, or find a price that Lanny Lunchbucket will pay.

I am Lanny Lunchbucket. I used to hitchhike to work everyday from Norco to Elsinore with my Lunchbox, whether it had food in it or not. it was about 15 miles on two lane blacktop before the interstate was constructed. Took about 40 minutes with the walking that I had to do.

It was a good prop. I couldn't sing, ain't pretty and my legs were thin, so I needed something (maybe should have bought a car). It also worked well when I lived in Stanton and worked in Huntington Beach. This is circa 1970-1973. Only late to work a few times "when I was young." KISS

Well,I am afraid you missed my point entirely. The emphasis is on- what it ACTUALLY costs. My point is that if no one is willing to pay the ACTUAL costs for goods and services, that these are TRUE and COMPLETE costs that go unmet and that IS A BAD THING IN THE LONG RUN.

No one has to offer healthcare to their employees or pay more than minimum wage. Goods and services are still traded life goes in AMERICA.
Plenty of folks are a part of those economic conditions. I do not want to be one of them and I do not think our country will be such a great place to live and do business if the day ever comes that we are all put on the same footing as labor in the world market. There is just no way to compete when workers in one place make $3,000 a year and folks here make $30,000 for doing the same type of work.

I am afraid that romantic notions of the 19th century just won't cut it in todays global market place.

By that I mean we are free to educate ourselves and seek our highest, most productive and best use in our economy and the world market. This however does translate into the notion that it ought to be acceptible for labor to be forced to drop everything sell their homes at loss uproot their families and move across the country for half of what they made last year. Yes this happens and it is not a good thing when it does. When this happens YOU LOSE A CUSTOMER. The displaced family, now uses their savings differently. Instead doing a remodel on their house and hiring you for boundary and construction staking, they take what is left of their savings and spend it on a U-haul van.

In 2009 Greenspan voiced the opinion that the market ought to be flooded with H1B1 visas because highly educated highly skilled workers in this country MADE TOO MUCH MONEY and constituted an entitled protected class. This is just one example of how one economic success is not entirely dependant on the romantic notions of years gone by. There are a multitude of other examples that prove this point.

I am not condoning cheating. There are plenty of responsible Americans having a tough time of it right now and it is not because they are stupid or lazy or not properly educated. These Americans have been and will be our clients again,but that is if and only if we wake up and understand the need to pay the TRUE AND COMPLETE cost of goods and services.

You are correct We do not have to pay these costs, but we will have crappy goods, alot more people using the county general and fewer clients if we don't.

That is as as simple as I can make it.

I appreciate the exchange and I do agree each of us needs to shoulder as much responsiblity as we can for our own destiny.

"...if no one is willing to pay the ACTUAL costs for goods and services,...'

Well then who is gonna pay it? The money has to come from somewhere, maybe borrowed or stolen. Can't steal so it must be borrowed and going into debt is not a good thing especially if one never gets out debt.

"....The displaced family, now uses their savings differently...." My father was "displaced" from our house back in 68. We moved to Norco and rented a house. And things kinda went okay for a year or so. Coulda been better but it could have been a lot worse. We had a place to live and we ate. But he still lost the house. But someone else was able to move into it. I guess there was a benefit there, even though I didn't like the deal.

Did the government "flood the market with H1B1"? I don't know if they did or not. If they did, it sounds like a stupid idea to me. Usually the higher the income of a person the more taxes are created from the spending of the money. And also makes it so that other people have money from the exchange. I know I am missing something here.

"There are plenty of responsible Americans having a tough time of it right now and it is not because they are stupid or lazy or not properly educated."

Well said, Dane, cause stuff happens. My father had a tough time of it back in late 1969. I was not living at home at the time, I was working in Palm Springs. They were "displaced" from the rental, had no money, no food and were fotunate to have been put up in a garage supplied by one of the local churches. My dad or mom didn't contact me that this happened so when I came back from my job in Palm Springs over that Christmas of 69, that is where I visited them and my brothers and sisters. It was a surprise.

My mother was able to get food stamps and a little money from the local welfare office but not until 5 pm of the day that she went down there. They refused her at first in the morning. My mother would not leave until someone would talk to her and get her what she needed.

She didn't get any help from them until 5 pm when she broke down in desperation because she had children to feed and no money, no husband working. This is what she told me. Anyway they were on the dole for a month or two, found a new rental, dad got some work, I was able to send the little money that I had saved to them. The govt folks made my mother beg for the money and go crackers before they gave it to her. Don't know if it is any better nowadays or not.

This is not meant to be a "sad, sad story", cause it isn't. Everything seemed to work out in a relatively short time. No one starved, no one lived out in the rain. My government came through at the end of the day for my mom and brothers and sisters. It did'nt affect me a whole lot, but it probably influenced my siblings although they all seem to have grown up with good jobs and an education and they are okay.

Maybe goods and services will become "cheaper" if the true costs are not paid by someone. They certainly should be less expensive. Maybe that is the price that has to be paid. I don't know the answer. But someone has to pay for this stuff or it shouldn't be sold at that price. What I do know is that people should not go into debt and neither should their government. Because it can become "A BAD THING IN THE LONG RUN."

I think I just got off on a huge semi-tangent. I don't think I have made it to the pi yet, but I bet I am close. If my government can't spend my tax dollars and budget it so it doesn't go into debt, it should not get any more tax dollars till it learns to live with the money it gets.

I still think I missed your point Dane. Don't consider it your fault, it is just that sometimes I can't see "it". I am trying to remember what the topic thread was and I am not going to scroll down and see what is was. There went 45 minutes that I will never see again.

I happen to agree that the very best thing we could do is , is to devise a program whereby we develop a SENSIBLE PLAN TO REDUCE THE NATIONAL DEBT.

I have been thinking for sometime about what I call the "TRUE AND COMPLETE COST". There are plenty of examples where the ACTUAL COSTS of a good or service have not been paid and business still goes on. A great example is something like "Love Canal". The real cost of turning this failed venture into a toxic dump were not even contemplated at the time the canal was filled in.

The price of a Fast food meal is cheap,in part, because the workers are low paid and they do not have health care. the fast food meal is also cheap in part because low quality components are used in the assembly of the meal. Once in awhile a few people die becasue of ecoli. The fact that the fast food workers do not have health and wind up in the emergency is part of the "True and complete cost". The ecoli hazard is part of the "True and complete cost". The only way to control the ecoli hazard is by government regulation and if we decide as a nation that we do not want to pay this cost, then more people are likely to become ill. We have seen what free enterprise has done in this arena and if it is you or your kid that gets sick, then you would be calling the system a failure.

I mentioned H1B! visas because Greenspan had the ear of the government and there are plenty of folks just like him. they did not change the visas program, but there are plenty of folks pushing for it.
I mention the visas issue to illustrate that assumptions that folks use to build their lives upon could be upended by the stroke of a pen.
Licensed surveyors depend upon government regulation for their livelihood.
The market could easliy be flooded by allowing the regulatory legislation to sunset. I doubt this could happen, but it is an example where folks conduct business and make life decisions based upon certain assumptions.

thanks again