California Surveyors Forums

Comments? Discussion?

PRESIDENT’S LETTER
I was thinking about our predicament. You
know, the “Rodney Dangerfield Complexâ€￾,
wherein surveyors basically get no respect.
The problem is two fold. One, no one really
understands what we do, and two, no one
understands the worth of what we do. If you
go to a doctor, chances are that you would
really have no idea what he actually does.
You know he or she is smart – it says so on
the diploma – and you put your faith in
whatever they do for you. You also
understand the worth of a good doctor, too,
because the ramifications of a bad one are
usually instant and catastrophic. For me, it’s
the same with an auto mechanic. The key
turns, and the vehicle doesn’t start. Tony is in
trouble at this point. I really have no idea
what my mechanic does, but I can instantly
see and evaluate the worth of his services by
the fact that once he is done doing his magic,
my car runs again.

Practically no one has a basic level of
understanding when it comes to the practice
and profession of Land Surveying. The
comprehension of what it is that we do is
almost zero. To the general public, and to
most other A & E professionals, we are the
guys who stand behind that thing in the
middle of the street and wave our arms. All
we do in the office is punch a button, and
presto! AutoCAD does the rest. Heck, it’s all
in the computer – what’s all the fuss about.
All we have to do is ‘make sure the corners
connect’…..

As far as the relative worth of what these
processes yield, again, the general
understanding is next to non-existent. Even
though our involvement on just about any
design or construction project will span the
entire time frame of the project, our
contributions seem to nearly almost always
go un-noticed, and certainly are pretty much
universally un-appreciated. In spite of our
monumental contribution to these processes,
a large majority of the A & E would rather
duct tape us to a rusty water pipe in the
basement rather than acknowledge us. And,
if you think about it, those are the people who
treat us the best! The general public is
essentially completely ignorant to the benefits
of our services. And let me make myself clear
– I’m not talking about the benefits of the
proverbial $800 lot survey. I’m speaking of
the services rendered by a comprehensive
practitioner, a professional who, lets just say,
colors inside the lines. All people see, both
those inside the A & E community and the
general public, are unnecessary dollar signs
for a product that they truly do not understand
or value.

Even when a problem arises from shoddy or
unprofessional work, the finger is pointed
back at our profession as a whole. Often, the
problem is not seen as endemic of taking the
cheap way out, but the phrase “You guys can
never agree on anything – no wonder I’m in
court fighting my neighborâ€￾ is usually lurking
around the corner in every legal dispute. To
quote the great sage of our times, the Fram
Oil Filter Guy “You can pay me now, or you
can pay me later…â€￾ Yet, far too often, bad
work hides like an ugly virus, just biding time
in a suspended state of limbo, until WHAMO
– the ‘fever’ hits, the ‘aches and pains’ set in,
and guess what: The virus has struck, and
that cheap survey that was done 8 years ago
by good old what’s-his-name, (he was a great
guy, wasn’t he?), has reared its truly
grotesque head and is now infecting
everyone who was involved. Worse yet, it is
also infecting people who were not even
party to the original survey, sucking innocent
adjoiners or unsuspecting design
professionals into a disease ridden world of
costly litigation and wasted time.

No what we do may not be as critically
important as what a doctor does, or
anywhere as urgent as what a good
mechanic can accomplish with 30
uninterrupted minutes and the correct
wrenches, but it is a learned skill set none the
less. Additionally, it is a skill set that is not
simply a mechanical set of “IF / THENâ€￾
instructions. What we do as skilled
technicians and professionals is fraught with
hurdles, pitfalls, and roadblocks that only
experience, patience, persistence, and
common sense can solve. There is no
‘typical’ project. No matter how hard we tried,
we could never set up the cross-section
notes in the truck – we had to compose them
as we surveyed (Ask an old guy, he’ll explain
that one to you) And no, it really does make
sense that the two and a half acre job could
actually cost 4 times more than the 10 acre
job across the street.

The solution, you yearn for, what is the
solution???? (this is really gonna hurt, so
grab onto something solid) Education. The
lack of education, both on our own part, and
on our part in educating the client and the
public, is, I believe, the root of our main
issues. In the beginnings of our profession,
surveyors held positions of power and
influence because we were (at that time) men
of science. We were the only ones who
figured this measurement thing out early and
put it together with a set of concepts and
precedents that, for the most part, haven’t
waivered much in the last 225 years.

Now it seems that the general perception that
the public has is provided by the bearded
chainman with his hat on backwards over his
ragged surf-n-sport hoodie, his Hurley plaid
board shorts hanging half way off of his ass,
and his right boot spray-painted red. A truly
awesome flag-ship image for our profession.

Think about it for a moment: what do most
envision when you say “Doctorâ€￾ or
“Accountantâ€￾ or (ugh) “Lawyerâ€￾. Chances are
that, among other more colorful adjectives
(usually directed at the lawyers) that would
be bandied about, words and phrases like
‘professional’, ‘highly trained’, and ‘dedicated’
would surface pretty early in the discussion.
Chances are ‘The Dude’ doesn’t float up to
quickly.

What is the common denominator here?
Education. Up front and continuing.
California is one of only a handful of states
that has no real education policy for the
profession of land surveying, and it shows. I
deal with surveyors all across the western
United States, and it’s clear: we, as a state,
are completely out of touch with what could
be termed the ‘educational standard or care’.
But before you get the wrong idea, let me
come completely clean here; as far as the
question of who gets to sit for and/or keep a
California license:

1. I do not believe a degree should be
the sole criteria for consideration;

2. I do believe a degree must count for
relevant experience;

a. I do agree a relevant 4-year
B.S. degree should count for
3 years of experience. If you
worked over the summers,
then put that time down, too –
we’ll evaluate it;

b. Likewise, a relevant 2 year
degree A.S. degree should
count for 1 ½ years. Again, if
you worked over the summer,
let’s see what you did then,
too;

3. At the very least, California must
adopt a mandatory Continuing
Education system.

4. I do believe in order to renew our
license, one must do more than
simply forward a check every couple
years – at the bare minimum, a takehome
exam on California sate laws
that effect the surveying profession
must be required.

So, that’s my gripe, and I intend to do
something about it. With the support of our
members who concur, we will begin the
process of taking these recommendations
state-wide in an attempt to re-craft the
legislation and rules that govern our
profession.

And, no, I can’t do the job for less money that
I originally proposed, and no, I can’t train your
administrative assistant (no offence against
administrative assistants, please) to plot the
record easements into a record boundary,
and yes, it really will take three weeks to
perform the survey correctly, and on and on
and on.

See you in class…..

(written by Tony Cuomo, President Orange County Chapter)
(published in the Witness Corner, February 2011 issue)

See you in class Tony....

Oh, and without the backwards hat and earbuds.

Cheers!

Does the OC CLSA chapter have a website?

I believe it's www.oc-surveyors.org.

Spot On, Tony. And to add to that, I think those of us in the profession have it backwards when they say that there will be less interest (and fewer surveyors) with the education requirement.

A universal education requirement provides a 'clear path' for a prospective aspiring young surveyor. The general public is clear on the fact that Accountants, Engineers, Lawyers, Doctors, Architects (almost always) need a degree to get their careers off the ground. When I was in high school deciding what I wanted to do in life, I knew that a career path that started with a four-year degree was what I needed to become a professional. And I didn't have the great respect for the surveying profession until I worked in the land development field for a couple of years. I really wish I had known in high school what surveyors really do, that they are professionals with a great deal of responsibility, and that the importance of their work demands a good education.

I also second your caveat regarding the many great surveyors who did not get a formal education. Many of my less-educated peers could run circles around me in many aspects of the profession I'm sure. Education comes in many forms, and sometimes not continuously under a strict timeline of a university. But we've got to start (the rules) somewhere, and the ease of technology in use by others means that high-demand practicing surveyors need to be performing the most 'professional' aspects of their work as a larger percentage of their business.

Thank you, Tony for such an appropriate topic.

John S. Coffey, PE, PLS
San Diego, CA

Perfectly said Mr. Coffey. Great post! Why is it we don't have mandatory continuing education in place already?

It's been deemed as protectionist by the legislature, keeping individuals from maintaining licensure.

That's also the major reason for not having an education requirement in place in California.

Additionally, it has never been demonstrated that the CE programs in any other state have produced statistically significant improvements in the practice of land surveying in those states. In short, there is no concommittal reduction in enforcement activities recognized by the implementation of CE programs. In short: it’s a great idea; it just doesn’t produce measurable results. Why spend the non-existent dollars on a program that does not produce results?

Well first it will generate alot of money, lets be honest. I would suspect a standing room only the CSUF conference if it were in place. And Higher attendence that the State Conference, not to mention the amount of the few seminars that exist today would probably double or triple. There will be people that will benefit

Second, it is a good Public Relations opportunity that says "Hey, we are just like you other professionals and/or states". You can't judge us we are just as professional as you.

Third, it will force a professional that normally would not practice CE to refresh or learn something new in there profession. A profession that has seen some dynamic changes since I have been involved (1991).

Forth, it is a great opportunity to network and share ideas with your peers. A chance to start thinking in terms of one voice, share resources and knowledge on how we want to move our industry forward.

I practice CE now. I have not enlisted in the formal voluntary program that exists today, but I plan to in the next few days. I am doing it, might as well get a pat on the back. That being said I learn alot from CE and I certainly have benefitted greatly as a professional for doing so. But that is my experience. Not everyone will agree or have that results for reasons unique to there situation. I always viewed it as having put more tools in my toobox and expanding my marketability. If you want to pound stakes and right cut/fills your whole career, I don't have a problem with that. It sounds like the statistics do not warrant the professional change or increase the protection of the public. So the movement would have to be based on ideology and not measurable results.

Generates money, for whom and from whom.
If the conferences are that great why force people to go.
Like Dave says, forcing CE on surveyors in other States has shown no improvement in surveyor competency. Forcing people to do something that has no proven track record is typical of 90% of govt regulations - its a PR feel good rule.

4 year degrees and CE are always promoted by persons in academia, or who were able to run up a $60k+ education debt and the cottage industry created by forced CE.

And just what are we gaining with a 4 year degree, 90% of what we do now is accomplished by the push of a button. Who here even knows the formulas used by us ancient uneducated surveyors to solve BB, BD, DD intersects, compass rule adjs with a coffee grinder and Peters table. 30 years ago a instructor asked a student the formula for finding the 3rd side of a right triangle, answer; R to P. A little extreme, maybe, but my GPS software resolve the survey legs with a push of the button - do I know how -No, And I doubt any company will explain how it's software works to the end user.

Right now thousands of blue and white collar jobs are being sent to 3rd world toilets, even civil engineering design, then sent back here to be checked by experienced Engineers. Since most of our work is hands on we won't lose much to that, but where are the experienced Engineers going to come from to check those plans 20-30 years from now.
Here's a quote from the aerospace industry
"Office administrators were the best part of our aerospace company. They handled travel expense reports, vendor support, presentations and other important tasks for engineering folks, however, management has determined that engineers should do all these tasks; even thou they understand that they have less time to perform their own duties. Management shifted most of the engineering work to India and Russia now, so the remaining engineering staff performs OA type duties and sign off drawings. This is the sad state of affairs in America, that is brought on by greed in management and is why America is becoming more 3rd world."

To me CE and 4 year degrees are of little importance at this time in our Country. I have been thru 4 or 5 of these downturns and after every one we end up worse off then before, and this is the worst. Our buying power continues to erode due to tax freedom day moving from early march in ~1960 to it's currant location in late May, as American business, and our govt, continues to promote the ideal that we need to improve the lives of those in 3rd world toilets our standard of living is being brought down towards theirs. First the blue collar jobs left and now the white collar are leaving. We have hundreds of thousands of empty homes across America right now, hundreds of proposed shopping centers and business parks are still vacant lots and the developers have walked away from the property.
Want a 4 year degree, well you have time to go get it but I have no idea why you would want one in this industry. The cover of CE News in 2008 showed a bank vault with a sign stating "Opens in 2012". So if that is right we have another year to go, by that time it will take us 4-6 years to get any semblance of what our profession was in the early 2000's. And if we don't find a way to get blue collar production back here we might just stay right where we are now.

It generates money for the school programs, CLSA, and all of the people that current have seminars or the people that will certainly start having them. I do not think that it generates any money for the industry as whole, just a few that are involved in a certainly required "board approved" seminar, if it comes to be.

PR move, you bet it is.

I think that many people that advocate for this requirement have different motives. And protecting the public isn't THE driving motive. I think that PR and Money drive this force. The statistics don't lie, right?

I attend CE functions on subjects that I feel I need to learn more about. And I do learn more and feel that it is a good investment for me, professionally. Not everyone feels that way. The theme here is that people are ignorant of what we do and undervalue our profession. Why is that? Probably because they had an experience with a PLS that wasn't performing his duties professionally.

I practice CE for my reasons, its my choice. If someone has 300hrs of CE, but chooses to perform their duties in an unprofessional manner, then what is that 300 hrs of CE worth. Nada, and we are back where we started.

Conduct your business professionally, have pride in your work, talk with clients about the value of what you provide, mentor a youngster and instill these values so the next generation understands the importance of our profession. These should be reasons why to practice CE, if you choose.

I can see that I need some CE just to keep up with this thread. Define "bollocks" for me. I have looked in three dictionaries and the internet. Am now looking for a quick answer.

Thanks

that was pretty quick, dave. thanks

The ongoing arguement of CE reminds me very much of the following experience:

While working in a large organization, all workers and managment were mandated to take a sexual harassement class. The class I attended was also attended by 2 of the top brass in the organization. I sat next to these 2 and they were constantly cutting jokes between themselves during the class.
About 6 months later, one of the 2 was forced to resign due his sexual harassment of a subordinate.

Mandatory education did nothing to teach the man.

I think this story parallels the question of mandatory CE for surveyors.

You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink it.

For those who strive to achieve, CE is no issue. It is their mantra.

For those who are taking the shortest and most self serving route in life, mandatory CE will have very limited affect in "rehabilitating" their ways.

I only encourage mandatory CE, for the simple result of an increase in class availability and variety for those with the will to strive and achieve.

Just to be perfectly clear, in the last 24 months, I have earned more than 36 units of Professional Development Hours. I do not include any of the articles I have authored or the dozens of hours I spend reading cases, journals and other sources of significant learning.

As a degreed chemist, I spent seven plus years attaining post-secondary education.

I clearly do not have any objections to learning. I DO have objections as to what is defined as "learning" by certain organizations – but that, alas, is a subject for an entirely new thread..

At every opportunity, I am willing to stand as speaker and/or instructor to share what meager knowledge and experience I may have gained over the past 23 years of my career.

I am an avid proponent of education and life-long education…in all subjects and topics…at all levels.

I clearly understand the benefits of a solid, well-rounded education. In fact, the only “sucker” I can readily identify is the one who does not avail themselves of education and training at every possible juncture.

Our Board is charged with issuing licenses in order to protect the health, safety and welfare of the people of our State. They are not charged with protecting or mandating academia.

As soon as someone can show me statistical evidence that requiring a four year degree in an ABET approved curriculum and any level of MANDATORY continuing education units has an effect of the health, safety and welfare of the people of our State, I will champion the degree requirement and the CEU requirement with my fullest zeal.

Until that day, I will remain skeptical of mandates for education.

In my life, I have encountered many over-educated idiots. I have also had the pleasure of working with highly learned but uneducated geniuses. On the whole, I’d prefer the uneducated geniuses to the overly educated idiots.

Education cannot serve as a replacement for experience. In a field, such as ours, that relies heavily of the synthesis of reason from fact in a logical manner, we need to realize that part of that is simply not teachable. A thousand hours of art classes will not make someone, who cannot draw, an artist. 10,000 hours of training by the best voice coaches Julliard has to offer could ever allow me to sing without dogs barking and babies crying.

So in other words Woolley was a regular encyoclopedia of land surveying knowledge from the day he got his license? Come on. With all do respect I gotta call bollocks on that! And I spent a couple years in the UK working, I know what the word means and how to pronounce it.

I think Tony is talking about enhancing the image of the land surveyor in the eye of public. I think he is right about that, and all who disagree are just old.

I don't want to be required by the board to do the CE thing anymore than anybody else. CE credits are too cumbersome to keep track of, keep the board out of my life! I earn my CE credits in so many ways, and many would likely fall beneath the radar of any CE credit scheme.

Yes you pass the exam and have demonstrated minimal competancy to be a professional land surveyor. I love that term. I say do what you gotta do to keep up with the Jones' if you are going to be signing maps. And that's what I do.

I like CA law (on this aspect), no continuing education, no need for a 4-year degree to become an LS. But engineers, architects, contractors alike all think of surveyors as their yard dogs. I told a former engineering mentor of mine that I got my LS and he said "Why did you want to do that?" Get it? The only ones giving surveyors credit is the attorneys. How do we fix that?

Hats off Ian and Woodcutter!

Clark:

The engineers, architects and contractors usually only see the technician side of our work. We collect topo, create electronic models and pass the data on to them for manipulation.

The attorneys, on the other hand, often see the professional side of what we do.

There’s the difference.

As far as being treated as sub-par, I cannot think of a single engineer, architect or contractor with whom I work who does not consider me “professional”. Perhaps, that’s because I act “professionally” when dealing with them.

With the past week, I have attended two programs on Land Use Law updates based on cases, legislation and new concepts developed during the past year. In all, there was something on the order of five or six HUNDRED attorneys, etc. at these programs. With the sole exception of my friend Dane Ince, I did not see a single other surveyor at the programs.
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How many of those who scream about needing mandatory continuing education actually have subscriptions to Lexis Nexus or Versus Law? How do you do you legal research or keep up on law cases and statutes? How many of you attend CLSA Chapter Meetings? How many of you have worked on the Exam as graders? How many of you have taught seminars or classes in land surveying? How many of you have put on programs at Career Days at schools?

In short, ask yourself what YOU have done to make us look more professional in the eyes of the public.

BTW – one of the easiest ways to track Professional Development Units is through the CLSA program. The information is stored in a database on CLSA servers and is accepted by every State Board with which I am acquainted. Unless you want the plaque attesting to your membership (like the one on my wall), the program costs nothing!

Go to http://www.californiasurveyors.org/findasurv.asp and search using my license number (7010) to see evidence of the PDP. Run your cursor over the seal under the PDP column for the definition.

LS_8750 wrote:Hats off Ian and Woodcutter!

I second that.


Yea, I am old. When I entered the Land Survey profession I could have just gone to work every day and learned by the hands on approach. FWIW I have over 50 units of vocational credits related to land surveying plus 2 years of union apprenticeship classes. I worked on the upgrading of the union class books until they decided to split it into 2 2year programs, I felt that was a mistake. How many boundary classes do I need to take, if I need to be refreshed then I will probably forget where I parked my truck and its academic anyway.

Basic surveying techniques have not changed in 100years. Keeping up on the changes to the SMA, good idea but why force a surveyor who is content with just setting construction stakes and hates the liability vs fee amounts related to lot surveys enough to not do them have to refresh the SMA yearly. Are there gray area surveyors out there, yes. But CE will not weed them out.

In all my years of surveying I cannot come up with a way to enhance our profession to the public. Mostly the public sees us in the field wearing jeans, plaid shirt and red vest, I am yet to see any surveyor in the field wearing a suit and tie. But even in the construction industry that needs us for layout superintendents will complain about a Land Survey Cos fees, but not blink a eye at paying a CE more to use his field crews. Answer that one and we are on our way.

All I can say is that I want as many education resources as possible, being new to the LS fraternity -- Land use law being at the top of the list. I am a believer in mentoring. Suggestions anybody?

And the public is about the scariest example of herd mentality that exists on earth. A duck is a duck (monty python fans anyone?). So I don't know how the public may be educated about the profession of land surveying, hell most have no idea what a civil engineer does.

And most engineers, architects, doctors, accountants, don't really know what a land surveyor does. Trust me on that. Ok, some lawyers do, but that doesn't mean they know what we "really do".

Carrying dual licenses can be interesting at times, like being the gringo clean shirt inconspicuously fluent in spanish walking onto a construction site while the workers are talking "bollocks" about you. You get to know what they really think of you. You have the upper hand. It can be fun.

Think of the field tech, the office guy, the LSIT who works his ass off trying to learn only to get his hand slapped by some bookworm LS who can't hold a rod plumb. Think he gets respect? Is he really a professional? What does he do for the profession?

No barnyard "professionalism" dances are gonna earn anybody's respect, especially when the public doesn't know why you deserve it.

Tony may have a tough crusade ahead of him, but he has the charisma to do it. I will say that voluntary CE sounds a whole lot better than mandatory CE. I'm reluctant to believe that mandatory CE will enhance the LS in California; it may only serve to corral us into some robotic mentality. Equally educated, equally qualified, equally everything, some individuals just seem to stand out as leaders while others fall in line. I think that is good and healthy. Just give me the library card and I'll do the rest thank you.

Meanwhile here in Topeka I'm wondering why I have all these found pipes with no record. I'm fielding calls with land survey questions I don't have answers for. I'm reading this forum to learn. I'm wondering where my next meal will come from.

Cheers!

In Humboldt County, the beard is a badge of honor, and in many places around here in the summer it's too cold to wear shorts ...

I too did not earn a degree, and wish I had, though for more personal reasons and not because I feel it would greatly help my competency as a surveyor.

Continuing education is valuable, but I think it would become less valuable if it was mandated. I feel that currently those professionals who wish to improve themselves do so by way of CE as well as interactions with their colleagues (chapter meetings, get-togethers, etc.). Maybe it's easier in our community as there are fewer of us and so it's easier to remember names...?

As was stated before in this thread, education requirements will not eliminate the "un"professionals among us. We ourselves must do what we can to educate the public (and prove to the public) the value of our profession, rather than relying on a government mandate to "raise the bar".

My life philosophy is "Anyone can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else".

I have no problem with persons pursuing a 4 year degree, my son has a BS Honor's degree, I have no problem with CE. I DO have a problem with it becoming mandatory. Like I stated, no matter how many licenses you have in other States, or how many years experience, you cannot get a Land Survey license in New Mexico without a 4 year degree - that's just wrong. And no amount of CE is going to turn a poor surveyor into a good surveyor.

And I have seen cases where 4yr degree office surveyors are sent out with a field crew for a few days and their field experience is signed off, but it doesn't work the other way.

LB, who is signing for these candidates? This would be the one way to police ourselves. This should be an opportunity for you to block that avenue of by-passing the experience requirement. Otherwise you have inexperienced surveyors sitting for an exam. They have lots of experience taken exams, but very little actually making professional decisions in the field.

I never actually witnessed the events, but I heard it happened at more than one large firm and even govt agencies.