California Surveyors Forums

I got a call today from someone who may need a setback cert. for his new deck. The guy who called got some severe sticker shock when I said I wouldn't do the job for the offered budget (under $200.00) so nothing will probably come from it.

I pulled the Assessor Map. (attached) I have not seen a deed or done a proposal yet.

The assessor map SEEMS to show on apn#'s12,13,14 and 15(the circled #'s) a shift of 5' from the subdivision map lot lines.
ASSUMING this is the case; {IF, for example, the deed reads Lot 15 and the NE'ly 5' of Lot 14}

Can I certify to a rear lot line, ignoring the sidelines, and not do a Record of Survey?
I have good points I have been using on myself for both sides of the argument but I can't seem to win.

I see no problem with surveying an established line and showing a dimension to a fixed object. If line not shown on any map of record...... needs surveying, there is an immediate Record of Survey trigger. That being said, I have no problem with breaking a property in separate lines if possible. Why charge a client for a Record of Survey when the line they want marked is on the original “of recordâ€￾ lot line?

I have “maybeâ€￾ told potential clients "I can stake any line you want, but if I need to stake the westerly one we need to file a Record of Survey."

Any other input?

I would say that it would be within the law to certify to the rear lot line, being that the rear line is a line from a record map and not a "deed" line and a Record of Survey would not be needed. If you needed to creat a plat as part of the certification and said plat showed the sidelines (i.e. deed lines) that should probably trigger a ROS.

looks like you already spent your $200.

Is this in Piedmont, California, one of the wealthy areas in California with a great view of San Francisco Bay?

If you are able to check the original monuments on each street, which controls the rear line, and they are relatively consistent with the dimensions shown on the map, there would be no need to file a ROS on determining the rear line only.

Personally, I don’t know how you could do such a job for such a low wage and not cut a bunch of corners or end up losing money doing it.

I had a competitor of mine under estimate me on a mapping job a few months back. They wanted a topographic map of the neighbor’s site (which I could not access prior to the work, nor could I view what was needed) for a client of mine. Since I couldn’t determine what was needed, I gave a range on the estimate, the upper end of which was very high. This work was over a neighbor’s property and I was to ultimately determine where the old view should be restored prior to the forest of trees which had grown in to the view corridor.

I talked to the surveyor later and asked him how his job went for my old client. He told me that he lost his %$$ on the job. He did not even make his helpers wages.

Oh by the way, his client has one of the homes with an SF Bay view as well, in one of the most prestigious places in the Bay Area. It’s amazing how cheap some people can be. I personally wont work for such an individual that has no regard for what we should be doing.

Jay -

I tend to agree with my colleagues regarding certifying the setback to the original line and therefor not doing a ROS. But more importantly, based on the reaction to $200, something is seriously wrong with this individual. If I have someone out to do a quick fix on my refrigerator, it's going to cost $200 (it just did). How can someone live on this earth we inhabit and not understand at least in generalities what a professional service may cost? Even if he doesn't think of us as 'professionals', his thinking should still be above $200. And the cost is more than reasonable - we can't do certifications of anything for $200.
That's my rant for today. I feel much better now. :-)

John S. Coffey, PE, PLS
San Diego, CA

"Is this in Piedmont, California, one of the wealthy areas in California with a great view of San Francisco Bay?"

It's in Oakland, though very close to Piedmont, where I grew up.

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rich areas do not mean they are generous with their money.

My son worked for a pizza co and delivered in rich and poor areas. The Drs were notorious for not tipping. they got bigger tips delivering in the poor area.


I was asked to monument a lot in Dana Point for a new mansion in a gated community where the back line was somewhere on the cliff face over the beach. The architect was appalled that a ROS would be required. I didn't get the job.

Well they do say that you don't get rich by spending your money! I'm not sure who "they" is, but I must spend too much.

By the way, I'm not sure that a struggling surveyor, working by himself, out of his garage, with no over head could justify this job for $200. I'd say at least get $215. Ha Ha.

Okay I'm done.

re: $200.00
I don't know if it is that there is something wrong with this individual, I got a call last week from a homeowner with 6 acres in the hills, very exclusive town, couple million worth of dirt easy. After I spent 4 hours putting together a proposal he told me his REALTOR had told him it would be a few hundred. I'm afraid my reply was less than professional......

$200. Wow. That's not much more than asking them to cover your gas money and buy lunch.

At reasonable rates for the foothills, which are quite a bit less than reasonable Bay Area rates, I can't imagine someone doing this for less than $500. And that assumes that the research can be done on-line or by county map sets on CD/DVD, that between research, writing the cert letter, and any project management (initial client contact, contract prep, invoicing), the LS puts in only an hour, the site is close to home base and everything in the field goes exceptionally smoothly and the crew only 2 hours or so.

Anything less and your working really hard to go broke by not collecting enough to cover expenses. Why work so hard to go broke when you can do it at a much more leisurely pace by watching others underbid you and spend more doing the work than what they collect in fees?

His question was about a Record of Survey, not what fee to charge. Leave him alone. You don't have to charge any certain fee to be a "professional"

You're right TIB. Jay can charge whatever he wants, but I just wonder why some would choose to charge a fee that is likely to not even meet expenses. It's possible that in the desparation to just stay busy, some don't really stop to consider whether or not the job they take on is actually costing them money in real terms.

By remaining silent on it, we wouldn't be doing Jay or anyone else basically gifting their services to clients any favors.

It's frustrating when you see nearly every proposal you put out being lost to someone undercutting by half what you think is an already lean fee. And it's understandable that in the desparation to stay busy and feel like you are at least making an effort to keep your head above water, that you join the race to the bottom (fee wise).

But for those who cut their fees but can't find it within themselves to cut their services below the minimal acceptable level of care, if they took a rational look at what they're doing, they'd see that rather than putting off financial disaster for one more day, they are more likely hastening it by spending more than they are brining in.

Personally, I'd rather be succesful at turning 1 in 10, or even 1 in 20 proposals into real projects that turn a profit than get 50% or more that all lose money and add liability.

Let me be clear about this. I DON'T DO $200.00 BOUNDARY SURVEYS!!!!! I also can't afford to do $500.00 boundary surveys and live in Silicon Valley.

I guess I need english lessons. Rereading my original post I can see how I left that impression and it is making me physically ill.
I apologize if I left the impression that I would do the job for $200.00. That was the clients maximum proposed budget and when I said no way in hell could he get that survey for that dollar amount he decided against getting a survey at all. (As far as I know) He had measured 30' from house to fence and wanted to know how much 2nd floor deck he could add. He said he was able to add 6' and stay within existing building envelope and is happy.

I was trying to discuss the finer points of 8762 (if the survey discloses...... )and failed.

I will try to post better next time, I guess this is a good way to work on my communication skills.

The first few posts answered your questions w.r.t. 8762. I agree with them if you have no need to show a sideline. If you show a sideline or use a monument previously set at one of those altered sideline at back line corners, then you're into an RS.

And yes, I did read it as if you had offered to do a setback verification for $200. I'm glad to see that's not what you meant.

Better than the realtor was a city engrg employee. A possible client called for the same reason and I was tied up for a few days before I could get to it. So the client went to the city and the know-it-all city employee proceeded to make a copy of the accessors map, points at the property corner locations shown thereon and tells her; "You don't need to hire a surveyor, just go to these points and a iron pipe will be there marking the corner."
Not naming the city, but it's a beach town with notoriously bad and scarce monumentation.

She too, could not afford me.

signed
Another high priced hooker :)

Lesson from the week
You can edit your own posts

Also the consensus seems to be that the material evidence of an unmapped change was not disclosed by the FIELD survey, so no ROS.

I honestly thought the majority would go the other way.

I'm getting used to being wrong though, so I got that going for me.



8762b
" the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer shall file with the county
surveyor in the county in which the field survey was made a record of
the survey relating to land boundaries or property lines if the field survey discloses any of the following:
(1) Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in
part does not appear on any subdivision map, official map, or record
of survey previously recorded"

"Also the consensus seems to be that the material evidence of an unmapped change was not disclosed by the FIELD survey, so no ROS."

In this instance you can probably get away with it, but I advise not getting too coy. There was a case about 10 years ago involving a similar bunch of parcels that started as mapped lots, but over the years they had gotten reconfigured by deed (e.g., "the west 50 feet of Lot 1 and the east 10 feet of Lot 2"). The surveyor in this case was marking the lot corners and filing Corner Records with a wink and a nod, telling his clients how far to measure from the monuments to get to their parcel lines. He got hauled before the Board and ended up filing 10 Records of Survey on his own nickel, plus $8k in reimbursement for the enforcement action, plus pass an ethics course. (The reimbursement charge was subsequently reduced in response to petition from the respondent.)

Caveat agrimensor.

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