California Surveyors Forums

If you are in the vicinity of Santa Rosa, please consider enrolling and attending SRJC in Surveying, Civil Engineering Technology, and/or GIS classes immediately. Jerry can also present Boundary Control and Legal Principles (SURV 59) via distance learning… You would need to sign up as normal and then contact him for particulars…

They are in a DIRE situation of cancelling ALL CET and Surveying courses for the semester because of low enrollment. Even the GIS courses are in bad shape. Sacramento City College did not schedule classes for Spring 2012, and the future is very uncertain.

I imagine all programs in the state are in similar straits.

I am sure they are.

Lack of jobs and bad economy are major contributing factors.

When the econmy STARTS to recover, surveying will be the first industry/profession to recover. If there are not enough well educated and trained survey technicians out there to meet the need, that could potentially stall the Economic recovery.

And not only the "young adults" benefit from our surveying education programs. Even licensed professionals can stand to learn something new now and then. How many Land Surveyors really have a good handle on geodesy? Photogrammetry? GNSS theory? Error analysis and Statistics? LiDAR? Even the Subdivision Map Act, Public Resources Code, or LS Act?

Will the first licensed professional reading this who knows everything they need to know please say so?

"There isn't any work for the young adults in this state. Why?"

Look at where everything you buy is produced. The USA has no; steel industry, textile industry, electronics industry, etc. Eventually there will only be govt jobs, "ticket please" and "do you want fries with that".

Thanks to the EPA and its offshoots like CARB and AQMD all our mfg has been chased outside their reach, and the result of that is massive unemployment here and uncontrolled world wide pollution in other Countries by USA owned/based companies.

I am sure the people on this board are smart enough to know who to thank for the mess we are in.

SRJC Civil/Survey Tech program grad here... It's unfortunate to see the program in danger. I'm working with the goal of passing the LS exam this April, and don't feel I'd be in a position to have a shot at passing without the benefit of Jerry's classes, along with classes I took some years back at Sac City.

I took Jerry Miller's classes years ago. He had a contagious enthusiasm and was easy to learn from. I'd recommend his courses to anyone interested.

I'd like to thank Land Butcher and the half of the country that shares his world view. If they could only have their way on exactly everything they want we know we would all be so much better off.

The fact is that California tax payer does not care about nor appreciate the value of the state college system. If the tax payers appreciated the value of these type of programs they would freely tax themseleves at an appropriate level to fund these programs.

So blame yourself when we lose valuable trainning programs.

Why is this turning political, complete with personal insults based upon inferences made from what others have wrote rather than just on what they actually wrote?

So stop casting dispersions, warranted or not on groups not represented on this forum or on others in this forum for the economy or the financial woes of the state university and college system.

Enrollment, not subsidies will determine whether particular classes and programs continue. It doesn't matter how much money the schools have or don't have. Flush or broke, if a class or program does not get the minimum required enrollment, it's gone. Period. If that bothers you, then do what you can to improve enrollment.

If you want to argue politics with other surveyors, please take it to a forum that has a category for that.


Getting back to Rob's original intent with this thread, if you want to learn or freshen up on some aspect of surveying reflected in the course offerings, please sign up at the program most convenient to you. If you know someone who may be interested in one or more of these classes, please refer them to these schools. All being in the junior college system, they represent a great deal for one's educational dollar.

If you are refering to me I am not arguing, just stating the facts the way I see em. I do not think we need a hall monitor.

I'm pretty sure you do, but nevermind.

I am very aware of the serious issue facing Santa Rosa, I am not entirely in agreement with you on the solution.

You are not the Hall monitor of me. lol

It is not economically feasible to save the Planet at this time.

It seems reasonable to permanently contaminate all of the aquifers in the US with fracking fluid so we can get another 20 years of cheap natural gas and think of the jobs it would create.

We can no longer afford to support public institutions, many of which were created during the Great Depression.

But:

For example, what is happening to State Parks over a few hundred million dollars in funding is shameful. Think about it; whether we can afford something has more to do with the public will to afford it than anything else. We can restructure the mechanism to pay for these things if the public wills it.

This is all relevant to this thread because the decline of public education is directly related to the overall decline of public institutions over the past 30 years. If the public comes to its senses and decides to support public institutions then it can be done. For example, the way we collect revenue to support these things can be restructured; it has been done in the past and it can be done again.

Specifically as to the Land Surveying profession, eventually there will be demand for our type of services due to the fact there is always something going on economically and people eventually retire. Whether the Land Surveying profession will survive in its current form is unknown but some way, somehow the work will get done by someone. Land Surveying as we know it today may be too far gone to save but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. History shows that society has a way of restructuring things that need restructuring; it usually is painful and messy but it will happen.

Disclaimer: I no longer work at State Parks.

And sorry for posting during the work day which I do maybe twice a year.

To dmi

Government is a amazing thing, if you feel they need more money you can send them a check and they will cash it.

As for schools I am distressed at the lack of college courses available but times change. When I was learning survey classes were offered at 3 of the 4 JCs in OC at the time. Now I believe only 1 offers classes.

On a side note, CA is in the top 5 for dollars spent per student and in the bottom 10 on scholastic achievement so we are not getting our moneys worth. My son's GF moved here with her 2 kids (4th graders) and the classes here are being taught at a lower level then what they were being taught in Indiana as 3rd graders. She is not happy.

Parks, There are a lot of perks that the govt elected receive that could be cut and keep parks open. But on the other hand we have a local park that charges $3/car and there is a ranger there to issue tickets to those who miss the sign. With pay and benefits I figure that Ranger costs more than is collected in parking fees. And that is all he does just sits in his air conditioned vehicle with the engine running all day.

I apologize for the semi political rant, but some on here apparently need some enlightenment. I don't agree with everyone, does anyone, but I try not to make things personal.

Land Butcher-I have heard the old saw that if someone wants to pay more taxes they should just do so.

That is not the way the system works. Good public policy calls for developing a tax system that is sufficient to support our public institutions and then enforcing it. A voluntary tax system will not work. We need to be adults and figure out what works and then implement it.

The Parks budget is at its lowest point per capita in at least 30 years while employee total compensation is lower than ever in real terms plus there are fewer of them. I realize if you are a billionaire you don't need public parks (you can have your own private parks) but most of us would like to have Parks that are reserved for our use. The level of misinformation and propoganda regarding government and its funding is approaching a criminal obstruction of the greater good of society. People much bigger than you and me (in terms of wealth) are deliberately undermining our government and public institutions because they don't need them, don't want to pay for them and they get in the way of the plunder.

Recession is when a neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours. -Ronald Reagan

Those of us surveyors living through this depression could care less about parks and such. Cry me a river because my neighbors can't visit a pretty park, when I am struggling to put food on the table.

Dave Karoly, PLS

As our currant atty gen'l stated "CA does not have a budget problem, we have unlimited taxing authority."

You pay over 25-30% while working, plus sales taxes and other hidden fees (4 cents/qt of oil, 5 cents per yard of carpet, 20% more for CA special gas powered garden equipt, 30% more for water heaters). The govt wants you to save and invest then taxes you on what you make, then when you die they take another 35%. Only an few percent more and we are in Nottingham.

I suppose you think that govt employees retiring in their 50s at near 90% of their pay is justified after they spent those years earning more than the private sector with overly generous paid vac, sick, prof days, holidays, and can't be fired. A chainman job in the oakland area, after the first year the employee has almost 2 months off paid. And public service employees are not satisfied with that, over 50% apply for and receive higher paid disability retirement. Then they go back to their old job or another govt job and double dip. A cop on disability works as a street cop for the city of Fullerton.

And any govt employee that thinks he paid for his retirement can't add 2+2. That's why CA is buried in hundreds of billions of dollars in unfunded liability debt.

It's easy to verify the above just go on the State web site and they list the benny packages.

You can thank moonbeam for the above, he pushed for and signed the legislation giving CA govt employees the right to unionize. Do I have a problem with govt employees unionizing, no. My problem is that the employee contracts are not negotiated like in the private sector. In the public sector the people approving those contracts are elected and indebted to the unions. Go against the union and the union will spend millions to try and keep a county supervisor from getting reelected (Moorlach). Direct conflict of interest.

All of the above can be verified, do you homework if you think I am wrong.

surveysays wrote:Recession is when a neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours. -Ronald Reagan

Those of us surveyors living through this depression could care less about parks and such. Cry me a river because my neighbors can't visit a pretty park, when I am struggling to put food on the table.

Correct.

The public sector has no clue as to what we in the private sector are going thru.

If the lack of work was not bad enough, one of my major clients was told by the international company we work for to lower our fees 25%. That was in 2009. Why, because they could. And their profits continue to rise. Do you have any idea how many years it will take to get that 25% back even in good work times.

And there is still no light at the end of the tunnel. Hell, I'd settle for seeing New Jersey.

Hey! Got an idea!

Free ALTAs! Free RoS Maps! Free Topos! Free Everything!

Let's all go to Oakland and occupy. Let's survey the entire earth. For Free!

Will survey for clean needles.

Back to the orginal thread.....

Why do they not offer, in cases like this, classes over the web?

I have attended many types of classes from Sac State and Diablo College on the web.

I would attend in that case.

They have Boundary Control and Legal Principles on the web, right now. They are working on future classed via the web.

Web based classes might be the best way to go for surveying, exc for the instrument classes.

Wouldn't that Less cost and as such could be justified with fewer students.

A former employee of mine is currently taking a lab class via distance learning through Great Basin.

It works out in his case because he has some experience, has access to appropriate instrumentation, and knows how to operate it. He gets the assignments from his instructor, does the fieldwork and keeps the notes for each exercise according to the lab manual he bought for the course, and has a local PLS (me) who has volunteered to be a sort of Technical Assistant for the instructor by answering questions the student didn't get answered in online class sessions, reviewing the field notes, indicating where corrective work might be in order, and generally assuring that the student did the work and understands what he did.

It's not ideal for field labs, and the PLS volunteer would need to be a lot more involved for a student with very little or no experience, but for some it might be the best option available. For non-field coursework, online classes probably wouldn't have any significant disadvantages to on-site classes in terms of quality of education.

They are going to have to do something as some States that require a degree to take their LS do not offer survey courses in the State or like NM it's some college in BFE SW NM.

Even CA. Isn't CSU Fresno the only school offering a 4yr degree in surveying now? Fresno is fairly central but in a State almost 800 miles long that's not much help and tuition is expensive enough without adding in near campus housing expenses.

Paul F wrote:When I was taking classes at Santiago Canyon in Orange there were people driving all the way from Ventura to take those classes. This was pre-recession and all the classes were full.

That doesn't help the profession, having to drive 3 hrs to take a class. Almost every college offers a business, engrg, medical, teaching, gen'l ed degree, but you really have to want to be a surveyor to commute to the few locations offering the classes. Electronic classes may be the only solution.

I wanted to do my part by taking a class at Sacramento City College this semester. Not that I had to but I thought it would be a good thing to brush up on my knowledge.

Too bad they aren't offering any surveying classes anymore. In 2006 when I was thinking about taking the LS exam I took a class there and they were considering expanding the program, offering more classes, hiring more instructors. Now it's all gone. No classes, no instructors. No future for surveying education in Sacramento as far as I can see. Another victim of the depression I suppose.