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NCEES PE Civil Study

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:14 am
by Ric7308
In an effort to increase California licensee participation in the development of national examinations, NCEES has provided the Board with information detailing current representation. Currently, there are only EIGHT California-licensed Civil Engineers on the list for development of the national PE Civil examination. Yes, you read that right...EIGHT...out of almost TWO HUNDRED total for this exam. And that is out of approximately 70,000 licensed civils in this state.

Message from NCEES that maybe you all can pass on to your Civil Engineer friends:
Thank you for helping NCEES publicize its survey to update the PE Civil exam specifications. We’ve had a good response so far, but we still need more volunteers to participate before the February 25 deadline. Please continue to help us spread the word about this important study to ensure that the PE Civil exam remains relevant to current practice.
Information for this study was originally published by NCEES and by licensing boards almost a month ago. I've attached a letter explaining the study in more detail.

Link to study: http://www.ncees.org/civilsurvey

NOTE: If any land surveyors read this thinking that is not good, keep in mind that participation by California land surveyors is even lower...yes lower. Please refer to Roger Hanlin's post from a few days ago about participating in the FS/PS study.

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:15 pm
by land butcher
This is just for PE's

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:07 pm
by LS_8750
Fret not. ASCE is pushing this.

Recollection is blurry, a while ago. 10 years or more. The trick to passing the exam was all about looking at the units.

Professionals simply get these exam things out of the way and move on. No exam is going to adequately prepare one for professional practice.

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:11 pm
by LS_8750
CA could omit the National LS exam and be just fine. The NCEES exam for land surveyors was a joke, waste of one last preparation day for the state specific.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:24 pm
by liftmys10
LS_8750 wrote:CA could omit the National LS exam and be just fine. The NCEES exam for land surveyors was a joke, waste of one last preparation day for the state specific.
I disagree. If you took out the NCEES exam, I would have ONLY studied for the State Specific exam and missed out on alot of material that the NCEES only covers. Sure, some of the questions could be revised or thrown out. But I think the ncees exam made me study more in different areas/subjects that the State specific does not cover.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:58 pm
by Peter Ehlert
Shawn: for context, I believe with beginning the use of the NCEES exam the PLS exam was truncated... it was probably more broad in scope... mine was a full 8 hours.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:56 pm
by E_Page
I can't speak to the NCEES engineering exams, but with respect to the level of difficulty of the NCEES portions of the LS exams, at least when I took them in 1995, I agree with Clark that it seemed like a bit of a waste of exam time. I found it to be only marginally more difficult than the LSIT, which I found to be ridiculously easy (spent 1 hr answering morning questions, 20 minutes reviewing, 2 1/2 hours at the gun show at Cal Expo. Similar time breakdown in afternoon).

The NCEES portions can and did cover different facets of practice and covered a broader set of PLSS topics than covered on the State-specific exam. The other value of the NCEES exam is that it provides a good means of comparing our examinees to those in other states.

I haven't checked in the past couple of years, but prior to that, California examinees consistently performed about 10% lower as a group and based on pass rates, than the average of other western states in both the PLS and the LSIT.

IMO, that clearly shows the inadequacy of California's qualifications to sit for the 2nd level surveyor's exams as compared to those other states.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:45 pm
by land butcher
With the proliferation of these top secret multiple guess exams, does our board ever review the exams for vaguely worded questions or questions that are constantly answered wrong, probably because the question and/or answers are just wrong?

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 pm
by LS_8750
Well Evan, that statistic is somewhat disturbing. I want to believe that the CA land surveyors and the difficulty of their licensing process by far exceed the national average. In practice that is what I feel. (Recall my NV licensing beef from earlier posts)

I spent considerable time, and workshop preparation time (Pacific Land Seminars - Tony Cuomo) on the the state specific exam, and the day before the exam I spent most of the day watching the setup of a tattoo and hotrod show, having finished my NCEES exam in 1/3 the allotted time.

For the state exam, I scribbled down an answer for at most 65% of the questions on the 2010 CA specific exam, and somehow received a passing score +/- 45%-50% of the total. I could have used 8 hours to complete that exam.

Surveyors scoff at this. Disbelief floods their minds. My uncle, who I lived with my first two years of college, ribbed me at the idea that engineers "C" average grades means that the student is correct "about 50% of the time" (he was some silly advertizing major or something - although quite successful). He still teases me about this. (Look at the Bay Bridge and look at the Golden Gate) To engineers, this is the norm. To engineers, a score of 45%-50% (in a difficult class) would earn you a "C". A grade of 65%-70% would earn you an "A". (I think the fear is that if this were not the case, we might see more surveyors studying engineering... :)... JFS).

I cannot believe the above is the norm in Land Surveying academics. But in land surveying practice I believe that the critical "correct answer 50% of the time" negative farce might actually apply to the practicing land surveyors just as it applies to the engineering students. Damn near every survey map I run across triggers an 8762 requirement simply to clarify the previous surveyors intent. Let's not even go into the construction related stuff, because well - "Measurement is Dead" and so "what do you do for a living?".....

The practice of land surveying: with all of the daily technological tweaks, tricks, advances, etc. .... Is this stuff land surveying anymore? And are we land surveyors actually doing this kind of stuff? (I'm talking to you boundary specialists)

So back to the Exam. NCEES - Are you kidding me? State Specific - I can only hope you understand that going multiple choice means that more questions get answered, which means more guesses get incorporated into the scoring, which means more dilution. The answer is "B", for "Bullsh$t.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:31 am
by land butcher
For the State specific you are only allowed 2 calculators from a specific list and you cannot bring in extra battery packs or change batteries. Even if you have a case of spare calculators in the prometric locker you cannot use any of them, only the two you originally brought in. So if your calculators both belly up part way thru the test you are SOL.

There is a story from years past that I believe to be true where a surveyor took 2 calculators and 2 extra battery packs to the test. Somewhere before finishing both calculators were kaput. He wrote this on the exam and finished it by explaining how he would solve the rest of the problems - he passed.

Since we have dumbed down to a multiple guess test why not write a series of tests that do not require the use of calculators? Solves a lot of problems.

And having to turn your pockets inside out and being wanded - what's next those now surplus TSA scanners.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:53 pm
by rpost
Ya... in 2010 I thought the NCEES Exam was pretty silly. I did not do any extra studying for it other than my State specific preparation. I was finished in a couple of hours with, if I remember correctly, 3 or 4 questions that needed guessing. It doesn't serve a purpose here in CA, at least when the CA exam was hand written. There is no possible way to ask someone to write a legal on a multiple guess test, and every licensed surveyor should have to write one out in order to pass a surveyor licensure exam.

I did recently take the AZ exam, however. And I must say that in AZ the NCEES Exam serves a purpose. The AZ State Exam is not as difficult as the CA exam and does not stand alone to determine minimum competency (although, no exam I have ever heard of or taken actually does). I have heard that CA tends to be the tough one compared to the others, so maybe a less difficult state specific is common.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:58 pm
by E_Page
land butcher wrote:With the proliferation of these top secret multiple guess exams, does our board ever review the exams for vaguely worded questions or questions that are constantly answered wrong, probably because the question and/or answers are just wrong?

Yes, at least with the exam in the previous format, if a question "performs poorly", that is a significant majority of examinees answers it wrong according to the test plan, it is usually excluded from the scoring (this happens in Standards setting).

The question is still in the pool for use on future exams. But (again, in the old format), the question will undergo some amount of rewriting anyway so as not to be identical to a question on a previous exam. If the question performed poorly, that info is available to the exam development team for the upcoming exam. If they still wanted to use the basic question, they would look at it to determine if it was worded poorly or if there was a problem on the grading plan. Usually it is because the question was worded ambiguously. Occasionally, the grading plan may have not included an answer that may not have been the best answer, but was correct nonetheless. This can happen when a question addresses matters which can be dependent upon differences in local jurisdictions. The grading teams normally have LSs from a wide variety of jurisdictions, so if there are one or two that are outside of the norm, there is usually one or more LSs on the grading team who can attest to that and adjust the grading plan accordingly. Since the grading of the new format is totally different, I don't know how that circumstance would be handled.


As to the calculator thing, I don't understand the prohibition against taking in extra batteries, but 2 calculators would seem to be a reasonable rule to follow. If you forgot to put fresh batteries in your calculators before the exam, you probably deserve to fail. If both calculators die of some non-battery electronic version of a stroke, I guess it just wasn't meant to be for you this year. Bummer.

IMO, the LSIT/EIT is where the candidate should have to prove their calculating abilities. The professional level exams should be testing professional level skills and knowledge. The upper level exams should be testing analysis, management, decision making ability, communication skills, etc. Calculating, and thus the need for a calculator should be minimized on the 2nd division exams. Many of the exam development team members I worked with in the past attempted to develop questions with this philosophy in mind. One year we even developed a complete construction problem that had only calculations that were simple enough that one should have been able to quickly do them in one's head, even under exam stress. The rest were process and decision questions.

Obviously, if the problem is involving something like SPCs, it would be mostly about calculations. But for most other topics, calculations could and should be minimized on the LS, and accordingly be more robust on the LSIT.

The CA exam has a reputation as being the toughest, or one of the toughest among the states. I don't think that reputation is or was accurate. When I took the exam in 1996, when I worked on exam development and grading from 2006 to 2010, and of the past exams which have been released by BPELS, none have questions that are unreasonably difficult.

The reputation, I think comes as a result of 2 factors. 1, the amount of content on the exam is such that a person near the minimally competent level is going to use every bit of time available to fully complete the exam. Some may barely complete it, some may not quite complete it. A few may have time to review their answers.

If one is unaware that most years the cut score ends up somewhere near or a little above 50% and that there have been no must-pass portions, then one probably has the idea that they must complete all portions of the exam to have a hope of passing, and that the cut score will be somewhere around 70% (that was my assumption when I took it). To complete the CA exam (in it's previous format) and have a high degree of confidence that a high percentage of your answers are correct after rushing through them and without time to have checked them is a very difficult task.

2nd, the minimal qualifications to take the exam in CA are among the lowest in the nation. Most states require a combination of education and experience of 8 years or more. Some states specify minimum amounts of experience in certain types of surveying. Thus, the candidate whose 6 years is 80% construction staking would not qualify.

CA also lacks a 3-strikes rule that many other states have. The 3-strikes rule is if you fail the exam 3 times, you must re-apply to take it and show that you have gained additional training and experience in order to be re-accepted. The low entrance bar and the lack of a mechanism to weed out those who perrenially fail the exam pulls down the performance of the overall candidate pool. It also necessitates that the cut score be lowered in order to pass an "acceptable" percentage of the candidates.

The high amount of underqualified and/or underprepared examinees who inevitably fail can either admit that they were underqualified or underprepared, or they can beach about how difficult, and probably how unfair the exam is.

If CA had minimum qualifications that were on par with the average of other states, and had a mechanism to weed out those who have proven that they are not yet ready by failing 3 or more times, I believe that the performance of the overall candidate pool would be at least on par with that of other states, and perhaps better given the training opportunities that now abound through distance learning and CLSA Chapter review courses.

But, it ain't likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

Deadline extended for PE survey

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:27 am
by Rob_LS
NCEES is seeking licensed civil engineers to participate in an online survey to update the specifications of the PE Civil exam. Many P.E.s have completed this survey, but we still need more participants in all principal specialty areas of civil engineering, especially in geotechnical and construction. To allow time for additional responses, we have extended the survey deadline to March 4.
We would appreciate it if you would complete the online survey or pass it along to your colleagues who practice civil engineering: ncees.org/civilsurvey
Thank you for your assistance.
NCEES

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:58 pm
by land butcher
Thanks Evan, but that is a lot of info on testing procedures that are no longer in use. I was hoping for some up-to-date info, like what they are doing today and the 2013 test.

Even with 2 calculators, if the batteries go bad in one and the other calculator quits working but has good batteries you are not allowed to swap battery packs. I have no clue as to the logic behind this, but then everything seems to be defying logic to accommodate minimal competence proctors. IIRC there was a time when you could plug into 110 if needed.

I keep waiting for the day when NCEES requires you to look at the light when you leave the testing area. (Men in Black)

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:29 pm
by Edward Reading
E_Page wrote: 2nd, the minimal qualifications to take the exam in CA are among the lowest in the nation. Most states require a combination of education and experience of 8 years or more. Some states specify minimum amounts of experience in certain types of surveying. Thus, the candidate whose 6 years is 80% construction staking would not qualify.

CA also lacks a 3-strikes rule that many other states have. The 3-strikes rule is if you fail the exam 3 times, you must re-apply to take it and show that you have gained additional training and experience in order to be re-accepted. The low entrance bar and the lack of a mechanism to weed out those who perrenially fail the exam pulls down the performance of the overall candidate pool. It also necessitates that the cut score be lowered in order to pass an "acceptable" percentage of the candidates.

The high amount of underqualified and/or underprepared examinees who inevitably fail can either admit that they were underqualified or underprepared, or they can beach about how difficult, and probably how unfair the exam is.

If CA had minimum qualifications that were on par with the average of other states, and had a mechanism to weed out those who have proven that they are not yet ready by failing 3 or more times, I believe that the performance of the overall candidate pool would be at least on par with that of other states, and perhaps better given the training opportunities that now abound through distance learning and CLSA Chapter review courses.
This!

"This!"

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:29 am
by bruce hall
Don't know what you are trying to say, Edward!

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:42 am
by Dave Karoly, PLS
It is unrealistic to hang all of doorkeeper chores onto an exam, any exam. I used to be a Flight Instructor. The FAA added a regulation that I had to give an exam to each student before I could solo them. So I figured how hard could it be? I will just write my own test; believe me my first student to solo after the new regulation found a lot of mistakes. Exams are poor measurement tools of someone's ability and knowledge to say the least.

If there were some sort of education requirement (not necessarily a degree) where you have to take college level courses in a list of subjects with a minimum number of units that would weed out a lot of people and it would keep the lucky ones from passing who shouldn't have an LS or simply aren't ready for it.

In other words, add more doors you have to go through to go into the exam room.

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:13 am
by RAM
Woodcutter, I agree, there needs to be accountablity for those who sign.