California Surveyors Forums

Unless these things get nailed down, they act like rivers and streams, fluvial systems subject to the forces of nature.

The nature of roads is basic, they are subject to adjustments in alignment due mostly to the forces of nature, or politics.

Sometimes roads don't move at all over the course of a century. But then surveyors read ancient descriptions (viewers reports, etc.) and then re-locate the centerline of these roads to hypothetical, or theoretical, locations that have no connection to reality.

I have one such road where the sidelines of the right of way show that basically it could not have occupied another location for at least the last 85 years. Oh, and of course it is in one of the most prestigious communities in the state. I have no recourse but do the right thing and hold the as-traveled road centerline.

And, the 1982 survey for the lands across the street, based on my found monuments, indicate the right of way falling about 15 feet onto my client's property, because among other items they did not dig up the centerline monuments called for in the 1974 survey. Those monuments from the 1974 survey still occupy the centerline of the road, not to mention other indicators such as countless huge oak trees, ancient drainage ditches, and grading patterns that no doubt tell the tale of where the road has been located for the last 100 years or so.

Now I have a problem that involves, cities, counties, neighbors, and title companies - thanks to shoddy work across the street that was done 30 plus years ago. Oh, and lets not forget the equestrian easements and the geologic hazard easements that are attached whos locations are now questionable.

When a legal description calls to a road, it calls to a road, lacking other info then it calls to the centerline of said road, not some silly ancient description that has not basis in reality.

Pallamary is right. Measurement is dead. The informed, if savvy, don't even need survey equipment any more.

Clark,

I had an epiphany a few years ago following an old (late 1800's) road deed. I concluded the descripton in the deed-a series of tangents-P.I to P.I.-was sufficient to determine that the courses laid over a quad map confirmed I had the right road following "generally" the same route, but they could not be used to actually define the location. I used the road itself as a monument defining the location and the existence of the deed as the instrument that created the public's interest.

This is not to say that method should be used in each and every older case. Some older deeds that are based on a survey with sufficient ties to surrounding control (government corners, etc.) should be given a good faith effort to be located. For instance, if curve data starts showing up in descriptions and varying widths are given, it's entering the "quasi-modern era" and may just entail a rotation to fit a longer stretch of road, possibly treating a tie given in the deed as secondary to the road location. The question is whether it's retraceable to some degree of certainty.

As usual in surveying, no "one size fits all" formula. These have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Dave Ryan,
Humboldt County

D Ryan wrote:Clark,

I had an epiphany a few years ago following an old (late 1800's) road deed. I concluded the descripton in the deed-a series of tangents-P.I to P.I.-was sufficient to determine that the courses laid over a quad map confirmed I had the right road following "generally" the same route, but they could not be used to actually define the location. I used the road itself as a monument defining the location and the existence of the deed as the instrument that created the public's interest.

This is not to say that method should be used in each and every older case. Some older deeds that are based on a survey with sufficient ties to surrounding control (government corners, etc.) should be given a good faith effort to be located. For instance, if curve data starts showing up in descriptions and varying widths are given, it's entering the "quasi-modern era" and may just entail a rotation to fit a longer stretch of road, possibly treating a tie given in the deed as secondary to the road location. The question is whether it's retraceable to some degree of certainty.

As usual in surveying, no "one size fits all" formula. These have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Dave Ryan,
Humboldt County

As I keep trying to tell those of the next bunch who will take over from us:

There is no such thing as doing it by rote.
Every survey has it's own nuances.
Keep your mind flexible.

The CL of paved roads in Laguna Beach may or may not fall within the paved area.

A CL mon for a paved road thru a orange grove in Corona was between the first and second row of orange trees about 1/2 the paving was within the r/w

Surveying is such a exact science. LMAO

Dave and Clark are correct.

Surveying is a process of gathering evidence in order to develop the facts.

The question should always be, "what is the best available evidence?"

My situation stinks of prior surveyors who had beefs with each other, so felt it necessary to disagree with one another. And now we have a mess. A real mess. 3000 sq.ft. minimum contested area, conflict between Town and owner across the street, not including equestrian easements and geologic hazard easements noted within the area.

Yeah. Stinks of litigation doesn't it. Town will drop a fecal bomb, County will shrug, prior surveyors are gone. I am holding the bag. I am suggesting the reality of the situation is to recognize the long standing road as the monument, surly to be protested by the neighbor across the street who had long believed his lands occupied to the monuments (which I have found), which were set based on imaginary bearings and distances (old legal description) having no basis in reality. Eight years prior, the surveyor who preceded me simply set railroad spikes in the middle of the as-traveled road (1974), which from my side of the road fits occupation exactly.

Those monuments across the street conflict with my survey (by 15 feet), and do not have any relationship to the actual road which has occupied the same location for 100 years or more.

Thanks. At least my clients can afford to have me explain the situation and help sort it out.

I am torqued about the pettiness, or piddle matches, that obviously exist between surveyors (who for some unknown reason glom onto imaginary concepts concerning measurement and the concept of measurement superiority). You don't even need advanced instruments to see the disparity between the varying degrees of garbage prevalent in our prestigious realm, it is right there on the face of every document we review, it is patent dogpile.

Chain and compass, and sensibility. However rare, that is all a land surveyor needs. Good luck in your endeavors. Don't forget to check the latest CLSA sponsored laser scanning, lunch serving, coffee roasting, toenail trimming, gadget featured in our next issue.

Cheers.

In 2000 I prepared a Parcel Map subdividing a 2500-acre ranch in the Dunnigan Hills. Yolo County Road 12A passes through the ranch, and in those steeply undulating hills it takes a very twisty route. The viewer's description was pretty close beyond the hills, but in the twisty part it only generally followed the as-built road, which had been in place, complete with sideline fences, for 100+ years. While I dislike deviating from what appeared to be a surveyed description, I opted to show the right-of-way centered on the existing road. I created a new centerline to fit -- with curve radii as tight as 150' -- and used it as the boundary between parcels . With any luck, no one will challenge the result (and in that hardscrabble hill area it's hard to think of a reason anyone would bother). 13 years on, so far, so good.

.

Good reading on the subject.

"Chain and compass, and sensibility." If this is all that is required, then I do not think anyone needs a licensed surveyor.

Take a deep breathe, relax, and calm down. Your HAIR is on fire over this and I do NOT see how you can help your clients, until you put out the fire on your own head first.

You know you are not the first retracing surveyor to encounter this problem,right? It does happen on an infrequent basis that roads,for whatever reason, are subject to have rights located in one position by record and rights by use located in an entirely different location.

There is a solution to this problem. You did not cause the problem,but you can help bring it to resolution. I agree it is a bad thing that the situation exists in the first place.

Thanks Dane, or Dr. Ince.....;)

Thanks, 7191, for the article, it does get you thinking...

I read the Georgia Confessions, and I gained some insight but also had some points where I certainly diverged.

You put up a stone wall adjacent to a creek, and that wall falls into the creek, you will likely have caused that creek to change course, and because so have caused downstream shifts in the creek alignment which opens up a can of worms related to erosion, accretion, avulsion, or trespass and nuisance if the creek does not fall on the boundary. Not an example I can sink my teeth into.

You cannot adversely possess on government property. Here I like the Georgia Confessions. Does that mean the government gets its full measure? If so, then the rest of the world should get their full measure as well. Why not? So in my opinion, like the Georgia Confessions, the government gets what they get.

Bear in mind that I am a "retracement" surveyor, it is the backbone of all I do. In California, where I work, many of the old roads that I cross paths with are old, ancient by western US standards. The roads existed before the GLO surveyors came along. The roads in a few instances existed as caminos between missions. Counties adopted these roads in later years, threw widths at them as conditions for adoption, and so here we are.

Case 1: Board of supervisors adopts viewers report (survey) of road as being 60 ft. wide in 1859. Property owners were compensated for the taking, the use of their lands for public purposes. Imagine the road at that time. In 1969 the road was improved, widened, modernized, monuments were diligently set. One-hundred year old fences exist on both sides of the road, separated by 59 feet plus or minus. That road is the width between those 100-year old fences.

Case 2: Subdivision from 1878 gives bearings and distances along a road, adjacent parcels are bought and occupied. Road is built (if it did not already exist). All is well. In 1914, the County adopts the road based on an accepted survey. Bearings and distances are different than those given on the original subdivision map. Road still occupies the same location, or original location, as always. In 1975 some dilegent surveyor comes along and sets railroad spikes in the center of the road and calls out bearings that match the original subdivision map from 1878. In 1982 another surveyor does not search for, or find, said railroad spikes and uses the 1914 description of the road for his subdivision map across the street from my client. Enter 2013. Monuments from the 1982 survey across the street show the right-of-way encroaching on my client's property by over 15 feet. Railroad spikes found from the 1975 survey match the present day centerline of the road. In fact, all surrounding terrain features lead me to suggest, as a professional land surveyor and professional civil engineer, that the road has not changed alignment, ever. The road is the monument. The centerline of the road is the centerline of the right-of way. No other evidence existed to support the location of the center of the road.

Then of course you have mountainous regions where roads get realigned by necessity. Yes. By necessity. Creekside roads wash out, and by necessity their alignments change. Mountainous roads slide out, and by necessity their alignments change.

Roads, like it or not, are dynamic. Roads contain rights attached to them. Because a road no longer falls within the limits of its description does not mean that rights of ingress/egress are terminated.

The rights that are attached with roads, the necessity for ingress/egress, necessarily make them unbreakable chains subject to adjustment by the forces of nature, similar to that of streams.

So, per my post number 12, above, I held the road.

The road preceeded the 1880something description and of course the 1914 description. The road is the monument.

Plus terrain features (the road follows in my area a small arroyo) indicate that the road has been confined to its present alignment for ---- ever.

Had this discussion with a SRJC student who is currently taking a Boundary Surveying class. The theme was that monuments always govern, which led straight to the issue of "priority of calls".

Many municipalities (civil engineers) will acknowledge when pressed, that they place big impressive looking well monuments in the street to be used as control monuments for the public improvements and that they bear no correlation to the legal right of way. There is no rule that says you can't build a road where you want, right?

This is called engineering surveying and this type of surveying is being improperly taught to land surveying land surveyors. Hey, the city put it in so it must be right.