California Surveyors Forums

There have been numerous comments, confusion, and misinterpretation regarding the Revised Discussion Board Rules. I will take this opportunity to clarify and address a few of these comments.

HISTORY
The CLSA Board of Directors is composed of five Officers that are elected by the full membership, approximately 50 Directors elected by the 22 Chapters and two ex-officio members (Executive Director & Editor). The Board of Directors, as a body, makes the decisions on behalf of the Association.

A motion was made at the November 2012 Board of Directors meeting, directing the development of a Discussion Board Policy for review by the Board of Directors.

The July 2013 Board of Directors agenda included Draft Discussion Board Rules. These were included in the agenda for the Board of Directors review and action. (Action could include, revising the rules, adopting the rules, or deciding that no rules were needed.) A motion was made and passed to adopt the Discussion Board Rules, as included in the agenda.

The Discussion Board Rules were developed to address one thing, professionalism and common courtesy.

CENSORSHIP
The first amendment provides us freedom of speech in a public forum. The CLSA Discussion Board is not a public forum. It is owned by CLSA and open to the public. That is not to say that discussion should be stifled or that topics cannot be debated fervently. In fact, respectful disagreement and thought-provoking debate is what makes the CLSA Discussion Board such a great resource for the survey community. However, it is important to remember that we can disagree without personally attacking/demeaning others.

“MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY” - “IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE” AND “BANNING PARTICIPATORS”
For the record, the - “MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY” - “IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE” AND “BANNING PARTICIPATORS” posts were from a fellow forum member, not a CLSA Director, nor Executive Committee member.

The goal of the revised rules is not to be punitive or ban users. In fact, the goal is just the opposite, it is to encourage discussion at a level that is respectful and meaningful. Further, There is absolutely no “my way or the highway” sentiment amongst the CLSA Board of Directors. If someone steps outside the discussion board rules, they will be contacted privately. The goal is make sure everyone can continue to participate in a productive manner.

REMOVAL OF POSTS
The recent discussion on this Board implies that the removal of a post or thread is commonplace. This is simply not true. There have been less than 10 threads removed from this Discussion Board since it was launched over 12 years ago, with less than 5 in the past year. Following are examples of posts that have been removed:
• Posts that provided confidential information regarding the LS Exam
• Posts that include the work product of another without his/her knowledge or consent
• Posts that could lead to potential inadvertent violations of the Antitrust Law, putting both the Association and members at risk.

Please note the author of a post has the ability to pull his/her own post. If the author is the thread-starter and decides to delete his/her post, then the entire thread is removed. There have been numerous threads and posts deleted by authors with no request by Administrator.

When a thread/post is deleted by Administrator it is physically removed from the database. It is not archived for review or later retrieval.

WHY DO THE NEW RULES LIMIT POSTING THE WORK PRODUCT OF ANOTHER?
Concern has been expressed that posting of another person’s work product, without their permission, will create negative interaction. Requiring that permission is obtained, prior to posting someone else’s work product, will ensure that it is being posted to provide education and not to criticize or ridicule. This also allows the person who created the work, the opportunity to be involved in the discussion. They may be able to provide additional information that led to the creation of the work product or possibly gain valuable lessons from the discussion.

VEIL OF SECRECY – TRANSPARENCY – CLOSED FORUMS
Let’s be clear. There is no veil of secrecy and CLSA IS transparent. CLSA is one of few private Associations that open their Board of Directors meetings to the general membership. CLSA is a private Association, not a government agency so the Brown Act (Open Meetings Act) is not a requirement. However, CLSA has always welcomed guests to attend Board meetings.

The closed forums on this Discussion Board were added at the request of specific CLSA Committee Chairs or a specific group (County Surveyors). Committees received their direction and authority from the Board of Directors. Committees are working on projects as directed by the Board of Directors. Often, emails back and forth amongst a large group of committee members becomes cumbersome and when this is the case, a forum board is sometimes an effective solution. However, when a project is in its beginning stages, and has not been adopted by the Board of Directors, it is not appropriate to allow the general public access. Once a committee finishes a charge/project it is sent to the Board of Directors for discussion/final review. Only after the Board of Directors approves something is it released to the general membership. If you have an interest in a specific committee, I would recommend you request to join the committee. I know committees are always looking for members.

IN CLOSING
Please remember this Discussion Board is open to the general public. There are non-Land Surveyors that frequent this Board including, members of the public, engineers, and attorneys. Please remember when posting, how your actions can impact the impression of a non-Surveyor about our profession and our professionalism. CLSA is one of the greatest surveying Associations in the nation. The services we provide to our members and our representation of this profession is unparalleled. It is time to unite and move CLSA forward.

If you have questions or concerns regarding the Discussion Board Rules, convey your specific concerns to the Board of Directors through your Chapter Director or forward them to the CLSA Central Office. The next Board of Directors meeting is November 2nd.

Michael Butcher
CLSA President

Thanks Mike! I appreciate the reply and clarification. It is very helpful.

You and I have the same concerns about the profession.

Keep up the good work Mr. Butcher.

We may just have to bring you back for a 3rd term someday.

Thanks, Mike P.,

I think that I agree with you on concerns about the Land Surveying profession in California.

One of the reason (among many) that I resigned before occupying the presidency of CLSA was my concern for the lack of professionalism of LSs in general and the behind the scenes manipulations of AMS.

IMO, at present this is not a professional organization. It is an organization that does some good for the profession in spite of itself. Admittedly, there are procedures and processes in place. However, they seem to be selectively administered. AMS does very well at setting up conferences, seminars, bod meetings etc. As well as administering benefits and taking notes of meetings. They do not do well interjecting themselves in the profession. Worse, they arbitrarily make decisions on professional issues ignoring input from Ex Comm members and others (I can provide examples). Not to mention their administration of the Forum.

Is CLSA the best surveyor's organization in the country? If so, that doesn't say much about the other organizations in USA and certainly not much about CLSA.

My recommendations that I was putting forward before I resigned was to not only evaluate and define the roles of Chapter
Representatives (Directors) but to also evaluate and clearly define the roles of all members of CLSA including committee chairs, liaisons, the elected Ex Comm, and the Central Office (AMS). Some of these are defined in the by-laws, as officious people would state, but are the roles really clear and being followed? No. Again, I am talking about all roles from the bottom to the top.

Additionally, I had concerns about CLSA's assets and what would happen in a catastrophic situation. I.e. if AMS disappeared off the planet for whatever reason. Does CLSA have a succession plan? Is there a clear contract between the members of CLSA and AMS on what happens in the event of any future event?

The answer is no. There is no signed contract between CLSA and AMS.

I will also recommend to CLSA to formalize the relationship between CLSA and AMS complete with clear descriptions of roles, expectations, succession plans, and anything else that clarifies the relationship. This should be a benefit to CLSA and AMS.

Mr. Butcher, I respect you a lot as a professional and consider you a friend. I hope you consider these ideas. Also, I would implore you to not ever consider additional terms.

What is AMS?

Which AMS are talking about?

American Mathematical Society
American Meteorological Society
Agricultural Marketing Service
American Montessori Society
American Musical Supply
Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer
Academy of Marketing Science
Atlanta Motor Speedway
Advanced Management Systems
Accounting Management Solutions

Something tells me it's not any of the above.

Tom, as you may know, Paul Cuomo and I went through these same issues and problems some 20 years ago. I am talking about the EXACT SAME issues. I have all of that original documentation. Once again, as there is no contract, there is no protection for CLSA and probably a lot of liability. We also raised questions about the potential tax liabilities associated with an employee/subcontractor relationship. If that falls about, guess who gets stung?

Because of our inquiries, Paul and I were attacked and challenged by an executive board that had been manipulated.

We also forced a detailed audit of board requests and unfulfilled administrative activities that were supposed to be done but never were, all in contradiction of the mandates of the association. AMS was under very specific orders ad instead did what it wanted to do and the vast majority of those orders that would have benefited the association.

At one point, I think we had six past presidents sign a statement similar to the views you expressed and of course, they were ostracized and ridiculed. I, for one, was threatened with a lawsuit because I organized a Southern California joint chapter meeting. We were "informed" that the chapters needed permission from the Central Office to meet.

We also advocated moving the central office to Sacramento so we could have more political clout and we could have someone available to testify when needed. That of course went nowhere.

Given the relationship with AMS, does CLSA own anything? Does anyone care?

It is for these reasons there is so much dissent and it is also why we, as a profession and an organization are politically impotent.

That's my four cents worth.

Is the CLSA budget available for review? I'd be interested in seeing the fees paid to AMS in relation to other expenses.

The budget line items are reviewed, revised as-needed, and approved annually at the November Board of Directors meeting. The Board of Directors, as a body, makes the decisions on behalf of the Association.

If you have questions or concerns regarding the Budget, convey your specific concerns to the Board of Directors through your Chapter Director or forward them to the CLSA Central Office. The next Board of Directors meeting is November 2nd.

Michael Butcher

I have attached a copy of the agenda for the meeting we held 20 years ago to address these very same issues.

This is the meeting we were told was "unauthorized" because it was not approved.

Paul Cuomo and I were told we could be sanctioned for holding a joint meeting and the CLSA threatened legal actions against us.


As they say, "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it."

Our concerns remain to this day and I would urge everyone to review the attached and see if any of this sounds familiar.

One last thing, I think this is some of the most important dialogue the association and membership should be pursuing!

Who do we contact to get the password for the County Surveyor forum? I am a Deputy County Surveyor in Los Angeles County and would appreciate being able to participate in that forum.

Dennis -
Please contact the CLSA Central Office at (707) 578-6016 or by email to clsa@californiasurveyors.org for assistance.