California Surveyors Forums

Someday I am going to learn how to read maps and figure out where things are. Thankfully we have architects who have all the answers.

http://www.lajollalight.com/2013/10/02/ ... hip-issue/

Nice work if you can get it! How about an overview of the way you established the waterward boundary of the Romney parcel, for the benefit of those among us who don't often (if ever) deal with tidal boundaries?

I can talk about it after I take care of my client. I have been working on this for 18 months or more in quiet as I needed to keep my client below the radar.

"And you can get it if you try".

Talking about professionalism. Thank you Mr. Pallamary. Looking forward to future closure/developments.

Folks, a classic example of the LS functioning as a professional.

Thanks Clark. You are most kind. It is a very interesting survey. I did similar work for a client who became a friend, the late actor Cliff Robertson. What makes that interesting is Cliff played Kennedy in PT-109. Mitt Romney's close friend bought Cliff's old place.

So when were architects licensed to determine boundary lines?

High drama for yours truly this week.

http://www.10news.com/news/ann-romney-s ... t-10012013

The late Cliff Robertson placed this plaque in his wall after prevailing in court. His home is next door.

The court ruled it a private beach up to the MHTL.

All part of the record - res judicata. And the question is?

Apparently I am for sale.

http://www.10news.com/news/decision-on- ... ay10112013

That architect's statement is disturbing - unprofessional, wrong, and misleading.

As an engineer, I advocate for my clients. I use land use laws and government ordinances and codes to counter misapplied land use restrictions all the time. But I have never conceived of the idea of lying, or attempting to practice another profession without a license, to help a client achieve his/her goals, or to advance a personal agenda.

I thought that to be an offense that would warrant revoking a license. Is it?

The architect testified today that I do not know how to read the deeds, the deeds are wrong and that by permitting me to determine boundary lines sets a dangerous precedent and that State Lands should be the only ones allowed to do this. He made many insulting and derogatory comments about surveyors today.

That being said, the project was approved!

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/oct ... expansion/

It looks like I have a new cottage industry - surveying the California coastline for the highest bidder. The architect is shameful.

There are two videos here. They are enlightening.

http://www.10news.com/news/decision-on- ... ay10112013

Read a deed?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/23669500/neig ... sion-plans

This is interesting as to motive and Ciani's opinion. He used his license to stall this project and cost everyone a lot of money. How sad; he has impugned the entire surveying community.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023587622

mpallamary wrote:This is interesting as to motive and Ciani's opinion. He used his license to stall this project and cost everyone a lot of money. How sad; he has impugned the entire surveying community.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023587622

SOP politics.

Apparently Romney can afford it.
http://homes.yahoo.com/blogs/spaces/mitt-romney-utah-home-ultra-luxe-log-cabin-203849272.html

"Apparently Romney can afford it." So what if he can. Are there two sets of rules, one for rich guys and another for the rest of us...oh wait. I was going to argue on Romney's behalf but nevermind.

"Are there two sets of rules, one for rich guys and another for the rest of us?"

No, there are one set of rules for everyone, but those with money(the rich) are better able to "work the rules" to their advantage. Not that that is wrong or unethical or unlawful. But it is a fact. Just the way it is.

This is seen more in criminal law than in the scenario described in this thread. i.e.- People brought up on criminal charges who have little or no money to fight for their cause are more apt to do hard time than those that can afford a defense and freedom while fighting their case. Both might be found guilty, but the one with money will probably pay the penalty without jail time, while the one without probably will not be so fortunate. Same set of rules, same verdict, different penalty. (This probably has nothing to do with this thread, just an observation)

Back to the thread...One of the neat things about this country is the ability to own land. Unfortunately just because I own the land doesn't mean I can do anything I want with it. Romney followed the planning laws in his area. He put a third of the house underground, so it wouldn't bother anybody. What a concept. Outa sight, outa mind. Pretty slick.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that there is more to Ciani's gripe than square footage and/or where the pacific ocean is in relation to the P.L.

These are the rules and everyone is entitled to the same rules. I had this discussion last night with a friend. The ultimate irony is people who own waterfront property are subjected to far more scrutiny and have to give up much more of their land to build. The intensity of the regulations is mind numbing. No matter where you are or where you work, I believe all Land Surveyors should be well versed in the environment you work in. I choose to work on oceanfront sites where I know the rules. It is an interesting case. Did anyone look at the map I posted to try and understand the MHTL?

These are the rules and everyone is entitled to the same rules

I just finished reading Bailout by Neil Barofsky, the former (and original) Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program (SIGTARP). The book makes it clear that if you're a big investment bank, you not only get a different set of rules, but -- as a practical matter -- you get to make your own rules. The issue in that case had nothing to do with partisan politics, it had everything to do with money politics.

mpallamary wrote:........ Did anyone look at the map I posted to try and understand the MHTL?

No. where did you post it?

In my original post I was going to defend Romney. Someone made a comment about SOP and I didn't think that was fair. If someone has the means to build a big house on the beach and they follow the rules, then more power to them. I stopped myself after I wrote something about "two sets of rules" and thought for a minute. Then I couldn't finish the thought. Of course the rules are the same but the way they're applied isn't as someone pointed out above. Once I saw my words in print I realized what I was going to say was going to sound ridiculous.

I say congrats to Romney and Mr. Pallammary and to the powers that be in county office for applying hte rules correctly. Of course, if Romney's name was Smith and no one had ever heard of him I doubt the architect would have bothered with it.

A few questions regarding the survey of the water line boundary per ROS 21553:

Knowing MHTL are forever changing, was there better evidence available or obtainable to determine the location of the current mean high tide line other than a 1931 survey?

If so, would CIVIL CODE, DIVISION 2, PART 2, TITLE 3, CHAPTER 1, ARTICLE 2, SECTION 830, or THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA LANDS COMMISSION PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE OR take precedent over the 1931survey?

Does a statutory boundary influence the location of a boundary not involved in the litigation?

Would not this be argued by an attorney and decided by a judge in a court of law and not determined by a surveyor?

Are not statutory boundaries subject to change if contested in a court of law and should a judge's decision, who is not a surveyor, be made an applicable survey principal in a boundary line determination on a parcel not subject to the litigations or on any other?

Is the line defined in section 63.1001 of the municipal code in coincidence with the westerly line of the subject property?

Did the error in the stationing found on MM 201 affect other documents prepared dependent on the map?

Why doesn’t the 1996 survey have similar notes as the current survey?

Does a certificate of compliance establish title or property line location?

Does the demarcation of property lines as shown on an unofficial assessor’s parcel map take precedent over property lines described in a deed or shown on a map of record or be considered at all as a form of evidence? If so would you not go back to earlier versions of the maps that show the boundary quite different and use them in your considerations?

An overlay of Map No. 891 with the counties aerial base maps where the assessor’s parcel map are superimposed displays a good alignment with the physical features i.e. roads etc. together with the location of the shoreline outside of this particular area. Did you find that odd?

The deed for the subject property describes the westerly line as a record monument being the “westerly line of “playa de las arenasâ€￾ presumed to be as shown on Map No. 891 and no mention going to the natural boundary of the MHTL but closes the description by excepting therefrom (described lands) that portion if any heretofore or now lying below the mean high water line of the Pacific Ocean. Going back to an earlier question regarding the best available evidence of the location of the MHTL and if found contrary to the re-established record location per the 1931 survey or the westerly line of “playa de las arenasâ€￾ would you amend your surveys?

You asked, “Water Boundaries Anyone?â€￾ My response is in the role of the devil’s advocate.

Thank You.

It seems some of your questions are inter-related. But if you would post the maps and deeds that you refer to, it might lead to some interesting discourse.

Remember that we should stick to the facts, and refrain from attempting to speculate on questions of law.

Cheers.

Here is the latest article:

I will refrain from offering opinions on matters of law at this time but would let you know that in 1997 when there was massive and multiparty litigants, I was the expert witness who testified and determined how to read and use that map and as such, my testimony defined the matters of law per order of the court.

I have also attached a copy of the map.



http://www.lajollalight.com/2013/10/15/ ... e-rebuild/

It would help those playing at home to have the copies of the maps and code sections to follow along.