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Centerline Ties - Southern CA City
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:12 am
by JMS8070
Question for the group:
A southern CA city has Monument Preservation Standards which say that at all stages of construction there will be at least 4 ties to centerline monumentation. Since my client's construction will be destroying one of the existing 4 ties to CL, we need to set one additional tie on one of the corners that will not be destroyed. The standards further state "All set points will be tagged with the appropriate PLS or RCE number." These standards require me to file a tie sheet in their format with the City...since I set my tag, aren't I required to file a corner record as well?
Thoughts?
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:31 am
by pls7809
Yes. I would do the Corner Record and then forward a copy to the city after it is filed by the county.
As an LS you have to follow what is required in the PLS Act. If a city requires ties, then that is an extra document besides a CR, not in lieu of.
You will probably find that
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:36 am
by bruce hall
if you send the city a copy of the corner record that you are filing with the county, then you more than likely will not have to create another document (centerline ties sheet). this has worked for me many times.
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:39 am
by pls7809
I believe this is in the case with any city that requires ties.
8772 requires "Any monument set...to mark or reference a point on a property or land line shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged...LS or RCE respectively..."
Centerline Tie points are reference points to a land line. Setting new L & T (no tags) or Scribed X's are not allowed.
A tag is required whether or not the city or agency requires it, IMO.
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:23 pm
by JMS8070
Thanks Bruce, but they have been very clear that if it isn't in their format on their paper they will not accept it.
Thanks Ryan that is my thoughts as well (on both posts) but when I talk to the City Survey Dept they believe that a corner record is not necessary and they have spoken with the Board and the Board is OK with it. They added that if I wanted to file a CR they don't mind but they do not see the need for it.
I'm in LA County which doesn't charge a fee to file a CR but I'm wondering what other people are doing.
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:13 pm
by Warren Smith
Marty,
It's a shame that the City wants its proprietary field notes in addition to (or in lieu of!) a Corner Record. The CR has the added cachet (dignity?) of the County Surveyor's seal and signature ...
The (Southern California) City where I was City Surveyor would merely add its Field Book and Page to a filed Corner Record, and add it to its GIS database.
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:27 pm
by Ric7308
Marty,
If the situation involved is an 8771(b) scenario, pre-construction Corner Records are required regardless of whether the City requires any additional documentation. And post-construction Corner Records are required for any monuments replaced regardless of any additional City requirements. I am not aware of any exemptions to that requirement.
I am not sure which City you are referring to and it really doesn't matter. I know several years ago, I spoke with Tony Pratt about City of LA which prefers tie sheets, but told him that Corner Records were still required. The Board doesn't have a problem with LA storing the Corner Records at their offices being that Tony is an official Deputy County Surveyor and if the County Public Counter clearly informs visitors that Corner Records for monuments within the City of LA could be found there.
Edit: Warren is one of the few that fully understands the requirements and had his former city operating well in this regard.
Bottom line is that Corner Records are required.
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:22 pm
by JMS8070
That seems to clear everything up. Thanks, Ric.
JMS
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:51 pm
by LS 4722
JMS8070 wrote:Thanks Bruce, but they have been very clear that if it isn't in their format on their paper they will not accept it.
Sounds to me like it's City of Los Angeles, that is the only city that I know about that demands any ties submitted, usually related to Tract or Parcel Map monuments shown on the final map, be on their standard sheet.
The monuments that need to be tied out are not only blue border monuments (I wonder how many on here know what that means) but any monument used for the boundary of the final map that do not have the required 4 ties.
Anyway, this is extra work for you. Some creative cut/past should not take that long. This is par for the City of LA.. they like to twist ordinances to make private surveyors do their work..
Hey! I can understand that. I mean, when the City is running 5 man crews you really do not want them to have to interrupt a good Pinochle game.. right?
Excuse me Ric
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:55 pm
by LS 4722
Ric7308 wrote:.... The Board doesn't have a problem with LA storing the Corner Records at their offices being that Tony is an official Deputy County Surveyor
Lets be honest here Ric.
The board excuses the City of LA from following the rules because of the heavy political clout the city possesses.
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:00 am
by Ric7308
Ha ha, you would like to think so wouldn't you Paul.
LS 4722 asked the question-
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:48 am
by bruce hall
...."The monuments that need to be tied out are not only blue border monuments (I wonder how many on here know what that means)"...
This is what we now call "the distinctive border". It is basically the border(limits) of the land being subdivided.
Long ago blue ink was used to define the limits of the subdivision on the tract map or parcel map. One would take the linen, turn it over, erase the slick "starch" off of the back of the map immediately adjacent to the subdivision limits, then take a quo quill (i think this is how it was spelled) pen, dip some blue ink in it, then place the blue ink along the exterior of the subdivision limits using this pen. the width of the line was about the size of a number 4 or 6 rapidograph drafting pen. (some of you may even wonder what that is, but you would have to be pretty young)
This way everyone knew specifically which land shown on the map was being subdivided. "Blue border" is an old term, kinda.
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 am
by Lee Hixson
Ah yes, the Blue Border. Back in the 70's and 80's the City of Yuba City's version of this regrettable practice was to turn the original over and use a fat, black felt tip pen to outline the PIQ. Sometimes, right over any annotation on the line, thus obliterating the bearings and distances. Getting negative feedback from anyone trying to read copies made from the original, they modified the method to "skip" over the annotation. But this frequently did not work well in practice. Thus, you needed to trek over to the Recorder's Office and copy this wiped-out text so you could work with it. I pushed hard against this practice, to no avail. Ridiculous.
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:03 pm
by 7702
I think it's great when some of you take the time to explain, in detail, some of the older practices. Thank you!
Blue Border
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:10 pm
by Dave Lindell
And don't forget when it was used on blue linen it made for a very pretty map.
(Blue linen was before Mylar.)
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:59 pm
by subman
The section below is out of the Los Angeles County Subdivision Ordinance. Many cities in the County adopted these requirements into their City Ordinance upon incorporation. You may note that this ordinance dates back to 1945, long before a Corner Record was incorporated into the PLS Act and was not subsequently amended.
21.20.040 Centerline intersection monuments—Notes to county surveyor.
A.
For each centerline intersection monument set, the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey has been made shall furnish to the county surveyor a set of notes showing clearly the ties between such monument and a sufficient number (normally four) of durable distinctive reference points or monuments.
B.
Such reference points or monuments may be leads and tacks in sidewalks, or two-inch by two-inch stakes set back of the curbline and below the surface of the ground, or such substitute therefor as appears to be not more likely to be disturbed.
C.
Such set of notes shall be of such quality, form and completeness, and shall be on paper of such quality and size, as may be necessary to conform to the standardized office records of the county surveyor. All such notes shall be indexed and filed by the county surveyor as a part of the permanent public records of this office.
(Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 114, 1945.)
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:05 pm
by Ric7308
Thanks Dennis for providing that as I'm sure it will help clear things up. Provides for situations pertaining to the SMA processes. What I mentioned pertains to the 8771(b) situation regardless of how the monuments or accessories thereto originated.
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:31 pm
by land butcher
I have never understood LA county's not requiring each lot in a subdivision being monumented only requiring sufficient monuments to recreate any lot which usually meant the blue border mons. Maybe this has changed but sure makes surveying individual lots expensive.
Dennis
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:07 pm
by LS 4722
subman wrote:The section below is out of the Los Angeles County Subdivision Ordinance. Many cities in the County adopted these requirements into their City Ordinance upon incorporation. You may note that this ordinance dates back to 1945, long before a Corner Record was incorporated into the PLS Act and was not subsequently amended.
21.20.040 Centerline intersection monuments—Notes to county surveyor.
A.
For each centerline intersection monument set, the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey has been made shall furnish to the county surveyor a set of notes showing clearly the ties between such monument and a sufficient number (normally four) of durable distinctive reference points or monuments.
B.
Such reference points or monuments may be leads and tacks in sidewalks, or two-inch by two-inch stakes set back of the curbline and below the surface of the ground, or such substitute therefor as appears to be not more likely to be disturbed.
C.
Such set of notes shall be of such quality, form and completeness, and shall be on paper of such quality and size, as may be necessary to conform to the standardized office records of the county surveyor. All such notes shall be indexed and filed by the county surveyor as a part of the permanent public records of this office.
(Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 114, 1945.)
This ordinance is for newly created rights of way within a new subdivision and where a new right of way intersects an already established one..is that correct?
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:38 pm
by Coy Glasscock
I used to work for an RCE/LS in orange county that was the "City Surveyor", he had set ties and created corner tie sheets in his official city capacity and made them available at the counter for public use. He later left that city and while having his own company he started getting letters saying he would have to file corner records and do record of surveys in some cases, after many letters back and forth, and a trip to his old city it was found that he didn't have to do it because he was acting in his official city capacity, HOWEVER ... he did have to do it because that city's council decided to cut budgets later in the years by eliminating their survey department, and in the process they had their public works dept. throw everything away, including all their survey tie sheets. This left no traceable documents and tags with his number in the curbs, so it forced this near retired surveyor to go back and file 100's of corner records and even a few record of surveys with the county 10 years later....... If he had of put a tag that said "city" instead of his number it would have been a different story.
Moral to the story.....if youNUMBER IT, FILE ITwith the county then give copies of the recorded to the city!!!!!
Lots of holes
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:07 pm
by LS 4722
Coy Glasscock wrote:I used to work for an RCE/LS in orange county that was the "City Surveyor", he had set ties and created corner tie sheets in his official city capacity and made them available at the counter for public use. He later left that city and while having his own company he started getting letters saying he would have to file corner records and do record of surveys in some cases, after many letters back and forth, and a trip to his old city it was found that he didn't have to do it because he was acting in his official city capacity, HOWEVER ... he did have to do it because that city's council decided to cut budgets later in the years by eliminating their survey department, and in the process they had their public works dept. throw everything away, including all their survey tie sheets. This left no traceable documents and tags with his number in the curbs, so it forced this near retired surveyor to go back and file 100's of corner records and even a few record of surveys with the county 10 years later....... If he had of put a tag that said "city" instead of his number it would have been a different story.
Moral to the story.....if youNUMBER IT, FILE ITwith the county then give copies of the recorded to the city!!!!!
in this story. I would like to hear the RCE/LS version who had to file " ..100's of corner records.."
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:44 am
by Coy Glasscock
LS 4722 wrote:in this story. I would like to hear the RCE/LS version who had to file " ..100's of corner records.."
That would be great to hear, I left the company before it was all complete, the RCE/LS was Warren Repke, I doubt he is on here, but I know alot of the letters where from Roger Frank so maybe he'll chime in or maybe Ray Mathe, because he was involved as well. I remember it was myself, Micheal LaFontaine, and Gary Neal working on it for Warren, since Warren was mostly retired at the time. Would be great if some of these guys could chime in, my memory may not be what it used to be. I do remember specifically submitting over 50 and thinking wow, we are not even half way done.
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:14 pm
by land butcher
I worked with Warren when we both worked at a OC city.
I would like to know the details of this, such as how can a event happening after you leave employment with a govt agency be your responsibility and if all the records were destroyed how were the CRs generated?
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:50 pm
by Tony Pratt
I rarely get the pleasure of perusing this forum but have laid down the Pinochle cards for the moment in order to respond. First, thanks to Ric and Dennis for pointing out the differences between 8771(b) and the SMA. The City of LA’s ordinance is very similar to what Dennis posted.
Next, we have never required ties on “blue border” monuments. Colloquially, we call this distinctive border the “dot border”. At one time we required ties for monuments at the C/L and tract line production intersection but ended that practice over 35 years ago. Finally, as I have a great interest in monument preservation, I appreciate those surveyors who diligently and sometimes selflessly provide monument tie notes in the form of Corner Records and/or City Engineer Field Book pages. Gotta run, my deal.
35 years ago?
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:56 pm
by LS 4722
Tony Pratt wrote:..... At one time we required ties for monuments at the C/L and tract line production intersection but ended that practice over 35 years ago. ...
Take a look at the two snap shots. Someone better tell these poor surveyors to get a new watch that tells better time.
BTW The recording date of that map is Dec 11, 2011