California Surveyors Forums

It's not getting any easier out there. Thoughts anyone?

Not getting any easier? I don't know anything about this guy who wrote the article but he must have been living under a rock. I have been talking about this for more than 10 years now with nothing but insults to show for it.

I am engaged on a daily basis in untangling messes caused by Land Surveyors who are not following codified law and damage the public as a result. Finding problems with real estate is what I do for a living and what people hire me to do. If you are not practicing that way then yea it may be "a brave new world" for you.

The number of incidents of people taking legal action or filing a complaint decreases for me as the economic picture gets better, not increases. So I can't agree with the statements in the article on that point. If things go badly in a transaction then people are much more likely to look for a scapegoat in hard times than in good times. Since the Land Surveyor is first on the scene they are the first to garner scrutiny.

My advice is to use a good and precise contract on each and every job you take on. Many of the complaints I see are because of misunderstandings about what is to be done, how much the cost will be and what the purpose of the survey was for.

Some Land Surveyor misses an encroachment, fails to locate an easement or fails to identify a conflict then the screw up is on them, not some phantom clients out there who don't understand what you are suppose to do.

If you get a complaint filed well that is par for the course and I find it laughable that other Land Surveyors would think this is somehow a bad thing. I do expert witness testimony all the time and this results in a lot of complaints. My attitude is take a look! See what I am doing! Tell me I am wrong or that I am acting unethically!

If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen and call yourself something else besides Professional Land Surveyor.

Mr. Pallamary, when you crawl out from under that rock (La Jolla) that as was suggested you live under, I suggest you get yourself a 10-gallon hat and a couple of pistols and bring along an entourage of mariachi owls and call yourself Rango.

I found your article a worthy read, and it led me to Ms. Thames' article. If things are crazy in Maryland, one can only imagine what it's like out here in California.

It goes a little something like this: They purchase an $8-million dollar home in Palo Alto, 90'x150' lot, only to tear it down and build anew. This is typical.

The real estate professionals just want the job done fast, they want to close the deal.

The high end properties tend to have less problems. Problems mostly exist with the lower priced properties. The lower priced properties tend to attract a somewhat different type, the types who call for engineering evaluations, or surveys, but only want a "partial" opinion, or a "partial" survey. These are the types that do not want to spend the money and learn the truth, but tend to leave discovery to the purchaser. "Buyer beware" seems to be the mantra. I prefer to avoid these types.

I agree that the land surveyor needs to adapt and become more involved in land use matters. The more I grow in my practice, the more I work with attorneys, real estate professionals, and a public who really do not know about land boundary law.

We don't have rocks down here in La Jolla - only beach umbrellas. The last time I crawled was when I proposed to my wife!

Comments are great! Thanks! Wait until you see the next one. We are going to have some fun.

dewardkb, would you like to write an article for The American Surveyor where you can reach a national audience?

It was not my intent to be insulting, please forgive my crude metaphor.

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/docume ... 1382457096

If you want you can read this while I write the article.

Mr. Dewardkb,
I could not get past the part about the original $4500 judgement. I clicked the file closed after skimming ahead a bit.

But it made me wonder: who has time for the small stuff? Where do expert witnesses congregate? Could it be the more litigious portions of the country? Might the more litigious portions of the country be the more affluent?

Dear Mr. Stoner

I don't know what the actual judgement amount is for and to be honest I don't care and has nothing to do with this case.

What we have is a Land Surveyor who performed a Land Survey that was obviously in error and this was apparent to any unbiased observer. This caused a brother and sister living next to each other to engage in a legal contest when the sister used the survey to tear down the old fence and build a new one.

A very simple and easily definable error on the recorded plat was used as an excuse by the Land Surveyor who originally performed the erroneous survey to resist all efforts to correct his survey.

The Land Surveyor who originally performed the survey had a complaint filed with the Board by the adjoining home owner (brother) after refusing to turn over a copy of his survey or discuss his survey with Surveyors (including me) the brother hired who came up with contrary survey results.

The Board in a very unusual move lumped together this complaint with another unrelated complaint against the same Land Surveyor. The Surveyor was fined and sanctioned for the survey he performed on the sister's property. However he still refused to turn over his survey to anyone and the brother then filed a lawsuit. In the meantime the Land surveyor who performed the original survey then filed complaints against the opposing Land Surveyors the brother had hired.

I was hired as an expert witness by the brother when the Board failed to act on the complaint against me by the original Land Surveyor. The other Land surveyors the brother hired were not so lucky and I know they were still fighting the complaints last year, not sure about what happened with that.

We went to trial 3 times but the original Land Surveyor never showed up and never submitted anything as evidence until it was too late.

The sister appealed on a technicality regarding the failure of the trial court to strike the original Surveyor's affidavit which was submitted too late to avoid a summary judgement.

At this point I don't know what is going on with this case but knowing my client I am certain he is continuing to pursue it. I presume the trial court issued a ruling regarding the original Land Surveyor's affidavit and this case is over.

I am posting this to make a point regarding the article above and to support the statements I have made about the article.

Again, what I see is Land Surveyors breaking codified law and damaging the public as a result. In this case the Land Surveyor resisted all efforts to fix a problem created solely by them not following the rules which resulted in a brother and sister living next to each other engaging in a legal contest that has gone all the way to the Court of Appeals and back and which has caused them to become bitter enemies.

Most of my cases never go to trial or are never appealed because typically the other Land Surveyor admits they have made an error or produced an erroneous survey. Most of them would rather do that than be exposed at trial as practicing in a substandard manner. This case would have been settled a long time ago if the other Land Surveyor would have simply showed up for trail.

I don't see clients suing Land Surveyors on fishing expeditions to get money. Although I do see them filing complaints as a revenge tactic because it is free. Thus my advice is use a percise and explicit contract and stick to codified law.

I am sure there are places more prone to litigation and I am equally certain there are areas where more experts can be found than others but I see increases in litigation where I am at when the economy is bad and less of that when it is good.

I know things are different in California but I could not resist making a comment after reading the article. Once again I apologize if I sounded rude or am sounding rude.

A few years ago, 2010 I believe. A year after my wife went home to The Lord, I had known her for 43 years.

So, with advice from online surveyor friends, I waited a year before doing anything impulsive.

I arrive in Texas and start working for Texas surveyor. My plan was to learn the ropes and get a Texas license.

Then I saw how things were done in that grand old state.

They do not have a recording/filing statue in Texas for basic subdivision or metes and bounds surveys. It's pretty much chaos in that state. Quite a few times I would go to a corner and find 3 or 4 rebar. Lots of rebar in Texas, pipe finders heaven.

I remember two particular lot surveys I was involved with.

One had a 20 foot alley in the rear. I zinged up a rebar on one side, then pulled over 20 feet, and zinged up the other one...it's was just a bit over 18 feet between the two.

Down the alley I went looking for more evidence, found another cluster of rebars at a common, supposedly, corner. After locating all this iron crap, I handed it over to the guy I was working for. I have no idea what he did about the final monumentation of that lot. He did give his Texas chuckle that inferred that a California surveyor had no clue on how to survey a Texas lot. I heard that insipid giggle of his more than once.

The second one was a simple (In Cali Land it would be) lot survey. Again, found rebar all over the place. Again, distances between two rebar were measuring a few feet short of record, less that 100 feet (record). A fence was also located, which was over line a few feet, no matter what rebar you held. Turned the mess over to the giggler and asked him what he was going to do about the rebars being so far off record. His response was "No sense reinventing the wheel" which I took to mean " I am not going to show anything out of record, just sign a map and hand it over and get paid. After all, who's gonna know, we don't file records in this state"

I dumped my plan on being a surveyor in Texas. I just could not deal with the shoddy work and non filing of records.

It's like 'who's on first" no one really knows.

I have long been an advocate of a filing law here in Texas. I agree that a lot of times you will find conflicting evidence attempting retracements particularly in urban settings.

That being said the filing of records is not as poor as you make out. Subdivision maps are typically filed for record for any development crossing a previously established map record line. Almost all metes and bounds surveys have the written description stripped from them and filed for record when a transaction occurs requiring a lender.

Yes it can be very tough performing land surveys even with the tagging law some 10 years ago. You are forced to take a hard look for original monuments and weigh conflicting evidence with no real confidence as to its pedigree other than by logic and intuition. Often it takes a Professional Land Surveyor who is really competent to sort through the evidence and find the original line.

I have seen just as much abuse of the system in Texas as I have seen abuse of the filing system in California so not sure about comparing the merits of one system or another as far as promoting stability in real property boundaries despite the fact that I think a survey map filing law would be beneficial in Texas.

If you walk out and grab a pipe and go, ignore or don't search for other evidence, fail to survey the adjoiners and fail to weigh the evidence or search for evidence according to the law then you have problems and from the cases I have seen this fact is no more rampant in Texas than it is anywhere else including California. Further not questioning your potential client enough about what the purpose of the survey is for, not explaining the results of the survey to them, not engaging them with a precise and explicit contract or not standing up to your client when they want you to vary from what is required by law most certainly will lead to litigation and complaints no matter where you are at and that includes both Texas and California.

How many surveys have you done in California?

It is always good to hear from you. I appreciate your thoughtful and detail responses.

LOL, none to answer your question. However I have read and researched quite a bit of case law from your state which I am sure you are aware of.

Courts as well as Land Surveyors being confused about what a "record monument" is or not understanding the difference between a private survey and a government survey are not confined to just Texas. http://clsaforum.californiasurveyors.or ... php?t=1945

Clark makes an excellent point as is often the case. dewardkb: My office is in La Jolla and my clients include some of the wealthiest people in the country. They move to California, particularly to places like La Jolla and Malibu Beach where I work. Invariably, and more often than not, I interface with their attorneys. It is rare that you ever get to meet the owner as they are surrounded by layers of law and administrators.

In most of the projects I am involved in, the contact is first made by an attorney who immediately identifies me as an "expert" in this particular area. That is their call, not mine and that is how I am presented to my clients. Because many of my clients are so affluent, besides their need to know what they own, many of them have extraordinary security needs and concerns, some of national interest. Some of my clients build homes with unprecedented safeguards like security and monitoring systems, safe rooms and bunkers. Some of them come from Texas and Oklahoma, old oil money I might add. In some instances, when I perform a survey it is monitored by attorneys and some are videotaped and on occasion, I am escorted by security personnel. When you are dealing with clients like this, every thing is documented and discoverable.

The point of my commentary is that I see a change in how these matters are dealt with; there is a change in what we do and how we are perceived and a lot of surveyors here in California and elsewhere are being exposed to a new paradigm because of the vast appreciation in property values. A couple of wooden stakes in the yard doesn't cut it anymore.

The attorney I referred to in my article is from Maryland. We are seeing this change and it is across the board. My goal is to educate and not pontificate.

As to my comments, there is nothing more depressing then to watch another surveyor get caught up in this kind of universe and then watch them lose their license, business and home after being sued for doing a poor job. I have seen this and I think there will be more of this. In such a litigious world, because there are so many lawyers involved, they are now going after surveyors. In many cases I am hired to defend them. I refer to these as "blood money" cases. They are always painful and heartbreaking.

I invited you to write something and I hope you pursue that. It would appear as if you have some valid points and they should be shared with other surveyors. Please avail yourself of this invitation. If nothing else it is cathartic.

I would also ask that you consider adding a little more to your handle, such as your name and more. Anonymity is not a preferred mask when commenting.

Thanks again for your time.

Those are very kind and thoughtful remarks Mr. Pallamary, unlike my original comment.

It is flattering to hear such a request particularly from somebody as knowledgeable as yourself.

I too have clients who burn money when they feel a draft and that is of no concern to me. I also have clients who take extraordinary measures to secure themselves and their property up to and including armed guards. This is no sweat off of my back. I don't care if they are dirt poor or filthy rich, I treat my clients the same way.

Truth is the only sword I wield and my work is the only shield I carry. It is amazing how strong a weapon can be if constructed of such material. It is equally amazing how impenetrable a defense can be if the work is done properly.

The only thing that tends to counter them is....truth and good work.

I prevail against Goliaths and Davids alike and you can go a long way toward leveling the playing field by practicing this profession well. As I have stated many times litigation can be removed from the picture much to the chagrin of lawyers involved.



It is now I who must thank you for your time.

Lawyers are always looking to sue anyone for anything as that's how they make their money. They get paid no matter who wins or loses and that's how they play the game. It's not how you play the game, the game is played to win however you can, if the truth helps great, if not, don't use it.
It sounds like the lawyers have found a new playing field, one with a lot of opportunity for $$$$ for them. I have researched record maps where following surveyors ignored points, have locations of mons a tenth or more different than others, sometimes this same mon has 3 or 4 locations on as many maps, mons reset from "original ties" off by a tenth or more. We deal with this all the time and there seems to be no shortage of surveyors ready to call another surveyor's survey bad even when there can be 2 or more equally acceptable results.

To compound the issue is media and retailers selling the notion that anyone with GPS and a assessors map can locate property corners exactly, just walk to the point and set it. As such even persons involved in land development for decades think setting lot corners is a slam dunk. If it were only so.

If anyone wants to see, for lack of a better term, a politically controlled set of rules look up the CA State Water Board requirements for monitoring well surveys. Example; Error of vertical accuracy well casing elevations, they had no clue as to what 3rd order leveling was. Same with horizontal as long as the HD is within one meter.

And we do lot surveys for how much?

Tort reform here in Texas has resulted in a 10 year window (in most cases) of liability and the necessity of an Affidavit of Merit in order to sue a Land Surveyor.

I do quite a few of these but I don't see them being executed by Land Surveyors if they are not deserved. Affidavits of merit have been challenged and I have seen them overturned if they fail to contain the minimum content. I would presume that you could find a crooked Land Surveyor to sign one but why would they draw attention to themselves? Such action is sure to solicit scrutiny and if you are predisposed to acting nefariously that kind of exposure would be your end.

Deward Karl Bowles
RPLS no 4966 Texas


http://landsurveyorsunited.com/profiles ... r-v-ernest

I believe Michael was sued over 0.01ft.

"I call them like I see them" ........ (doesn't everybody?)

Mr. Hixon that is an interesting question. If you do not mind I would like to ask you a question as a reply.

Do you think that all the Land Surveyors mentioned in the links I posted above "call them like they see them?"

I have no idea. People have all sorts of different background, data, impulses, concepts, experiences, misconceptions, prejudices, biases, better information, opinions, etc., etc. that confound and back up what they say, what they "call." Some calls are more accurate than others. Some calls pass the tests of time. Some are flippant. Some are ignorant. But in each and every case those making the calls are making them as they see them.

http://tsps.org/sites/tsps.org/files/ww ... pril10.pdf

Why I am incredulous that a Land Surveyor such as yourself Mr. Hixon who seems to have opinions about all sorts of things on this forum has no opinion on this matter.

Try reading the article on page 9 of the link above and tell me you still have no opinion.

Since the Land Surveyor in this case has had a judgement against him and it has been demonstrated in Court that they are guilty of errors, omissions and negligence then don't you think it is a safe bet that there are Land Surveyors out there who are not "calling it like they see it?"

The Court opined that "a person cannot intentionally fail to disclose information without doing so knowingly."

Lee did express a very valid opinion. First, he had to address the premise of the question, which was that he should be able to ascertain the inner workings of all other surveyors' minds to determine their motivations. It's not all that often that a map makes the surveyor's decision making process and criteria clear enough to discern whether or not they altered the results to fit something other than what they believed the result should be.

Most surveyors "call them like they see them". The problem is that many may be blind to some of the evidence they should consider, may have a distorted view that puts emphasis on one type of evidence over another, counter to how the courts have repeatedly instructed us to do, some may see evidence where none exists (the psychotropic psurveyors?), and some may intentionally remain blind to certain evidence if it does not support the result they believe they should reach.

So it's not that they unknowingly fail to disclose pertinent information. It's that some have a misguided view of their job and a misinformed view of what makes information pertinent to the question of boundary location. They believe that once they've reached a conclusion, evidence which does not support it is not relevant - some even believing that showing it would be misleading, and so believe that they do not need to or should not show it. That is a badly distorted view of the surveyor's duty. They are "calling it like they see it" according to that badly distorted view.

Negligent, certainly. Incompetent, probably. Misrepresentative, usually, Fraudulent, occasionally. or maybe even rarely.


Calling it like I see it.

A Land Surveyor like the one in the first link to the Court of Appeals case produced a survey that did not close by 5 feet in a 400 foot perimeter because he copied the subdivision map with the same error is "Calling it like they see it?"

The Land Surveyor was required by codified law to not only check the record but check their own survey in order to show that they form mathematically closed figures.

I have linked another Court if Appeals case where the same Land Surveyor was found guilty of error, omission and negligence. I reiterate the Court itself opines "a person cannot intentionally fail to disclose information without doing so knowingly."

I can produce endless examples of Land Surveyors engaged in all manner of shady activity just as can be found in any other profession.

In the face of all this denying that there are Land Surveyors out there who are not "calling it like they see it" seems rather inane.

Perhaps there is nothing really to discuss with you about the matter of liability if we can't agree on such an easily demonstrated truth.

Being Prickly again, aren't you, Deward. Nice to know some things don't really change.