California Surveyors Forums

We are always looking for qualified surveyors to help on our various As-Built surveying projects throughout North America. If you are interested in working with us, please use this form to tell us a little bit about your qualifications. It should take about 10-15 minutes. We will review your information and get back to you within a week. Thank you!





http://www.ppmco.net/join-our-surveyor-network.html

More as to "qualifications."

THE POSITION:
We are looking for a Field Surveyor / CAD Drafter to perform measurements and drafting for creation of As-Built plans of existing Sites throughout Southern California. Responsibilities to include visiting various Sites primarily in LA and Orange counties to obtain required measurements and other information followed by drafting the specified as-built plans per our standards. Surveyor will be trained in our systems and standards prior to working independently on projects. Initial training and projects will be Exterior Site Plans, with other plan types (floor plans, elevations) added later as your skill and proficiency increases.

I don’t think you need to be a licenced land surveyor to measure and draw floor plans. Their website is pretty clear on what an “as-builtâ€￾ is.

From their Home page:

"Our clients include ... and anyone else that needs to obtain accurate As-Built plans that show the existing conditions of a building or property. We can create all standard architectural As-Built drawings including ... site plans... and more."

From their "Commercial Services List.pdf":

"As-Built site plan including building exterior footprint(s), physical lot boundaries, walkways/ramps, parking areas with stalls, major trees, major visible utilities."

I suggest changing the name of the advertised service to "fenceline consulting". That is - "I'm not saying anything more than if I was in your shoes, this is where I would put a fence corner." Then if I care to I can defend that decision by showing them the evidence used. Presto, no liability and no license required!

I recall seeing this same thread go around a couple years ago, I think the subject was the same company.

A lot of what they are advertizing falls under 6731.1 of the PE Act, under the purview of civil engineering. Yes, they need a license for much of what they claim to do.

I see a few forensic engineering companies doing work that falls under 6731.1 in their practice of accident reconstruction. They typically comprise of mechanical engineers, and most of the time do not have a civil PE on board, nor an LS. I wonder how that dance around that during depositions. Probably opposing council is not aware.

What is CLSA doing?

Clark

Probably nothing or less.

Clark / Tom,

What would you expect CLSA to do that either one of you wouldn't also do?

As a party chief with a few years under my belt and with all due respect to my licensed brethren. I fear such a rigid interpretation of the law does far more harm than good to our profession. I fear that anyone who pulls out a tape and draws a sketch of anything would be in violation of section 8726.

Evan, I agree that "physical boundaries" is the same as "property lines" to the unknowing. To that I would say they better read their contract. Buyer beware and all!

You know stupid can only be protected so much. We can’t outlaw stupidity, we have tried, but have so far failed there is anyways that one person,which requires a re-write of the law....

Just to note again. The name of the company is:

"Precision Property Measurements"

I ask, who measures property with "precision?"

My error I was thinking the State Board, not CLSA.

Point of observation. I believe we, as a profession along with CLSA and the State Board, must work very hard to protect the profession. Accordingly I think matters like this need to be dealt with expeditiously and forcefully. Our practice is being chipped away from us at so many levels. If we do not do anything, who is going to protect us? If we do not protest, we have no business complaining about the state of affairs. Indeed, we control our own destiny.

surveysays wrote:As a party chief with a few years under my belt and with all due respect to my licensed brethren. I fear such a rigid interpretation of the law does far more harm than good to our profession. I fear that anyone who pulls out a tape and draws a sketch of anything would be in violation of section 8726.

As a licensed surveyor with more than a few years under my belt as a party chief, I don't think it is a rigid interpretation but a straightforward one with respect to the location of fixed works. By the plain language of the statutes (B&P §6731.1 and §8726), locating and mapping such features in this manner is a task that is required to be performed by or under the direction of a licensed LS or CE.

According to their name and their advertising, they are producing precision maps. Someone pulling out a tape and making a sketch for some project in their back yard has nothing to fear. the person creating a sketch from a few taped measurements is not marketing a service of creating a precision set of plans (as-built or otherwise) to the general public.

surveysays wrote:Evan, I agree that "physical boundaries" is the same as "property lines" to the unknowing. To that I would say they better read their contract. Buyer beware and all!

You know stupid can only be protected so much. We can’t outlaw stupidity, we have tried, but have so far failed there is anyways that one person,which requires a re-write of the law....

Recognizing the difference between "physical boundaries" and "property lines" is not a matter of intelligence but one of training and/or experience. Most people of average intelligence can readily grasp the difference if it is explained to them, but unless they have had reason to consider it at some point in the past, they would have no reason to consider that there would be any significant difference between these two terms that appear to have the same general meaning.

I have not seen this company's standard contract language and so do not know if there is an explanation of the difference. There is probably some short sentence stating that they will not locate property lines, believing that frees them from the requirements of licensing and the PLSA, but I doubt very much that there is an adequate explanation of what the "physical boundaries" are as opposed to the "property lines".

The responsibility of meeting and adhering to the licensing requirement for any given regulated profession or service is placed upon the service provider, not on the consumer. Do you routinely check to ensure that the mechanic working on your car or truck is certified for the particular service being rendered? Have you ever hired a plumber to do work at your home? Did you check to ensure that he was properly licensed and did you also check to ensure that each aspect of the service he provided complied with state and local laws? What about when you see a doctor, a lawyer, real estate agent, or accountant? Do you compare the contract and the services provided against the laws their practice is governed by? Do you check to ensure that each is properly licensed? I very much doubt it. I rarely do.

Nor should you be expected to. If they hold themselves out as qualified professionals or service providers, the consumer should be able to expect that provider to follow all of the laws applicable to the service provided, including holding the required license or licenses.

Fraudulent business practices are addressed in Ca B&P Code Sections 17200 et. seq. and 17500 et seq. There is much literature on line concerning litigation and case law related to fraudulent business practices, commonly known as "Unfair Competition Law" and/or "False Advertizing."

Fraudulent business practices are addressed in Ca B&P Code Sections 17200 et. seq. and 17500 et seq.

So, what you are saying is that CLSA, as a "trade association", or you, (or anyone else) as an "individual" can bring civil action against a business offering fraudulent practices? Yes, I agree, that is one avenue to pursue.

Or the other possibility would be for CLSA or any other individual (like the persons posting on this thread) to bring it to the attention of BPELSG by filing a complaint.

There are some pretty valid reasons why BPELSG was given authority to take action against unlicensed individuals to the tune of $5,000 a violation. And one reason may be that this would be the more appropriate venue for enforcing actions against unlicensed practice in lieu of civil court actions.

Last FY, BPELSG issued administrative citations / fines directly related to unlicensed practice to the tune of around $100,000. This FY (ending in one month) the number is even higher. For those individuals cited which do not pay the fines, the FTB is notified for garnishment. And you want to talk about some very unhappy people leaving some pretty interesting voice mails for Board staff.

If you want more done, file more complaints with BPELSG. Don't investigate it yourselves. Don't submit these to the JPPC - as well intentioned as the JPPC's are, they are not equipped to tread into this area. Some times, we receive notification from multiple individuals about the same firm. There's nothing wrong with that as it helps support the extensive harm to the public.

Another very important step that you as licensees can take pertaining to unlicensed practice is to educate the licensees that may or may not be aiding and abetting the unlicensed practice. Many times, investigations reveal the involvement of a licensee. Some simply don't understand what their doing is wrong, while others fully recognize the illegal aspects of their activities and have freely participated in it. Let them know. Submit complaints to BPELSG.

mpallamary wrote:Point of observation. I believe we, as a profession along with CLSA and the State Board, must work very hard to protect the profession. Accordingly I think matters like this need to be dealt with expeditiously and forcefully. Our practice is being chipped away from us at so many levels. If we do not do anything, who is going to protect us? If we do not protest, we have no business complaining about the state of affairs. Indeed, we control our own destiny.

I completely agree. With the advances in technology others are doing work that only we are licensed to do. For example, this company http://c2csurveys.com/, based in Tennessee, is doing mapping work in California. I don't think they have a CA LS on staff overseeing the work here, but how can I be sure? Is there a way to look up that up online?

Yes, Mr. Moore, when intuition suggests to me something is not right with a situation, I should listen, and listen carefully.

So, my understanding is that CLSA may take action on these matters at the request of its members. Actions that may be favorable to justice.

This is getting interesting.

Too bad there isn't a California Association of Professional Civil Engineers, or something to that effect. ASCE, no matter how they break it down, is just too big and generic for me.

Jeff Wright,

If anyone wants to check if an Organization Record is on file at BPELSG, just email Nancy at Nancy.Eissler@dca.ca.gov with the company name, address, contact person, etc. If we have one, the document will be scanned and emailed back to you. If not, you will be told so and a letter will be sent to the company requesting an OR.

We want to have these more available online and are waiting on the new DCA-wide system to be implemented.

I have a written communication with this firm and they confirmed they do not have a licensed person on board. The only way to get anything done is to do it. Every day, we lose more and more ground, everyone makes maps, everyone has GPS, everyone measures. Look at GIS - there are thousands of map makers out there and no surveyors! What is left for the surveyor to do? If we do not protect our practice, we will not have one. I wish CLSA would be more proactive in this area. I have asked many, many times for the association to step up, to no avail. What will we lose next?

Mr. Pallamary, perhaps the answer is CLSA.

The quagmire is, "how am I supposed to afford bringing action when I cannot make a living in the midst of this lowballing cancer so prevalent within the so called "land surveying profession".

"CLSA is only as good as it's members". Thankfully I have my PE.