California Surveyors Forums

Hello all,

I have searched the discussion board for posts/comments on the subject matter that I'm currently curious about, being the heart of this discussion, and have not found a direct answer. So, I'm going to throw this one out there in hopes of gleaning a better understanding of the SMA and the PLSA.

Scenario:
A client requests an ALTA survey (task 1). At the same time, the same client requests a Tentative Map for the subdivision process involving the same land as that of the requested ALTA survey (Task 2). The Tentative Map is submitted and in turn a Tentative Map number is assigned (Task 3). The assignment of a Tentative Map number occurs prior to the submittal/signing of the ALTA map.

Facts:
1. PLSA 8765 (c) states that "A record of survey is not required of any survey when a map is in preparation for recording or shall have been recorded under the provisions of the Subdivision Map Act."

Concerns:
It is my understanding that, under this scenario, a R/S will not be initially required, based upon PLSA 8765 (c). Under "normal" conditions and if all goes as planned, then a final map would be prepared, checked and ultimately filed/recorded, which would finalize the process. My question is this: What if the client holds off or ceases to push forward, leaving the project dormant? When does the survey revert to a record of survey? If the project lies dormant for years, is there still no need to file a R/S?


I know that the scenario above may be a bit ambiguous, but I think you'll get the idea. I'll look forward to your responses.

Best regards to all.

Buck

Good question. And one of my pet peeves. sometimes a project sits in the TM phase for years. The catch is the requirement to file an R/S within 90 days of setting monuments. IN my area most surveyors do not set the monuments until a subdivision is nearly ready to be finaled. IMHO the Record of Survey process needs to be a given. Survey, monument, and map.

Yep, in a perfect world, subdivision boundaries would be filed as a record of survey, then all the phased units can subdivide as the economy dictates.

What city?

"A record of survey is not required of any survey when a map is in preparation for recording or shall have been recorded under the provisions of the Subdivision Map Act."


I interpret this as a map that has been conditionally approved.

What you need to have in your contract is a condition that if the client does not follow through to a final map recording, then they will pay what ever fees you, and the county you are working in, require for an RS.

Send a letter to the County Surveyor briefly detailing the situation and keep the CS informed on any deviation from a final map recording. If you keep the CS informed I believe you will be fine.

The assignment of a Tentative Map number occurs prior to the submittal/signing of the ALTA map.


If this is in LA County I doubt that a TM number assignment would precede an ALTA being signed. That's a 'cart before the horse' situation.

If it's at the TM stage, then you have no map in preparation for recording. The TM is a planning tool and not necessarily (perhaps rarely) reflective of a survey. In any case, a TM is not one that will get filed and the purpose of the exemption is that it is a recognition that the boundary survey will be reflected on a filed map.

The way I read the law, if you have a Final Map in process, then no RS is required. If you've performed the ALTA, encountered 8762 triggers, and aren't already into or starting the Final Map, you are required to file the RS.

Great! Let's take the scenario one more step for the purpose of discussion...

add to the scenario (task 4)- Prepare a Final Map and submit to the agency/firm for first check. Lets assume, for the sake of discussion, that the agency checking fees have been paid, but conditions of approval have not all been cleared and that the clearances are to be taken care of by a third party.


Add to the concerns: The client/subdivider lets the project go dormant while the map is being checked. Again for the sake of discussion, let's assume the map has been approved by the various departments within the agency and may record. However, under the same assumption, the client/subdivider remains in limbo. How long of a time span may the survey go unfiled/recorded? What if the client/subdivider decides to sell the property and the new owner of the land doesn't want a subdivision?

again just throwing some scenarios out there.... thanks for your responses so far.

if it were my tag, to protect myself, file the R/S. You are on the hook, not your client.

Buck Rogers wrote:What if the client/subdivider decides to sell the property and the new owner of the land doesn't want a subdivision?

If the property is sold and the subdivision is cancelled, then you will be on the hook for an RS, assuming one of the 8762(b) triggers has happened.

Just file an RS and be done with it.

Now, I have done that before for a final map. File the RS, cut the tract map based on the RS (all found or reset per the RS) and move on to recording the TM.

A LOT of time is wasted in the recording time line for a TM due to the technical checkers.

I wont get deeper into this, but if you want you can call me and we will toss it around.

Filing an RS is a win-win situation.

PLSA 8765 (c) states that "A record of survey is not required of any survey when a map is in preparation for recording or shall have been recorded under the provisions of the Subdivision Map Act."

Buck questioned

When does the survey revert to a record of survey? If the project lies dormant for years, is there still no need to file a R/S?

According to 8765(c), there is no time frame.

My opinion is that if a Tent Map time frame and all the extensions have been exhausted then the time frame to file the RS begins when the last extension expires.

A dormant project, one shelved and neglected by the owner, is out of the picture. To qualify for 8765(c) tangible action has to be taken such as applying for a Tent Map and payment of fees. That begins the 'preparation for recording' process.

Buck, quit tossing up new scenarios and convince your client to kick in and get an RS filed.

BTW You never did tell me what city this is in.

Hi Paul!

I have been wondering about this general scenario for some time. The responses from you and the others on this thread are generally consistent with my line of thought and how to handle the survey for a subdivision map. There is not a specific project that I'm working on that this applies to, but have come close to scenarios such as this. I do have a situation in downtown L.A. where I have set monuments and the map has not recorded yet. In that particular case the map has been checked by survey division and land development and has been cleared to record by both of those groups, but some of the clearances have not been cleared and some of the fees have not been paid. So, it sits dormant, for now. The clearances are being taken care of by a third party. So, I check in with them frequently. It seems like the City of L.A. prefers to have the monuments set prior to recording the map in other words, no deferred monuments. The point I'm trying to make is that, in this particular situation, I've surveyed the block, made a boundary determination, prepared a map for subdivision and set monuments but the map hasn't recorded yet. So, my tags are out there, but no map on file yet. There is no record for the next surveyor at this time. It seems like there should be something for the next surveyor that happens across my tags, during this time of limbo, to make reference to. I dunno, I guess I'm just rambling.... so I'll stop for now.

Buck

"My opinion is that if a Tent Map time frame and all the extensions have been exhausted then the time frame to file the RS begins when the last extension expires."

That can be 12 years or more if a TM falls in the various legislative time extensions (IIRC, with the last round of extrensions that became law, some TMs could be active for up to 20 yrs). I doubt that it was the intent of the legislature to allow a map to hang in perpetual limbo and effectively avoid recording altogether.

Again, a TM is not filed as a record map of any kind. It does not serve as a record of a boundary survey. The existence of a TM by itself does not mean that a map is being prepared for filing.


Under the additional circumstances that Buck posted, if the Final Map process was moving forward, or at least had some indication that it would move forward toward filing, then I would stick with that process. If it appears to be stalled with no solid indication of restarting within the next couple months, I'd file the RS. If the process appeared that it was going to be subject to stops & starts, dragging it on so that the filing would happen on some distant and indeterminable date, I'd file the RS.


Seems to me that although there is some disagreement among the surveyors responding to this thread, our bottom line advice is the same - File the RS.

LS 4722 wrote:Just file an RS and be done with it.

Now, I have done that before for a final map. File the RS, cut the tract map based on the RS (all found or reset per the RS) and move on to recording the TM.

A LOT of time is wasted in the recording time line for a TM due to the technical checkers.

I wont get deeper into this, but if you want you can call me and we will toss it around.

Filing an RS is a win-win situation.

This was my answer. The RS locks in the blue border so no final map checking surprises after the project is designed. Note; the county of Orange Charges for checking pre-subdivision RS's and RS's when a LLA is monumented and it ain't cheap.

Hopefully the next surveyor now will call you when they find your tags and then you can provide them with the info they need. There is no law against saying "Found 1" IP LS 1234 per unrecorded copy of Tract No. 12345 currently in process with County of Super People."

There are some that just say "No Reference" immediately without checking with the LS. Surveyors need to complete their research when something out of the ordinary is found.

I think this is where the following section of the PLS Act comes into play. When surveys or subdivisions are in "limbo" for reasons beyond your control, this keeps you legal. Of course you can't just write these letters forever and never file, but I believe this section is for the situation you describe. That's why it's a good idea to check with the surveyor whose tags you find, as well as the County Surveyor.


From section 8762, PLS Act:

"The record of survey required to be filed pursuant to this section
shall be filed within 90 days after the setting of boundary monuments
during the performance of a survey or within 90 days after completion
of a survey, whichever occurs first.

If the 90 day time limit contained in this section cannot be
complied with for reasons beyond the control of the licensed land
surveyor or registered civil engineer, the 90 day time period shall
be extended until such time as the reasons for delay are eliminated.
If the licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer cannot
comply with the 90 day time limit, he or she shall, prior to the expiration
of the 90 day time limit, provide the county surveyor with a letter
stating that he or she is unable to comply. The letter shall provide
an estimate of the date for completion of the record of survey, the
reasons for the delay, and a general statement as to the location
of the survey, including the assessor's parcel number or numbers.

The licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer shall not
initially be required to provide specific details of the survey. However,
if other surveys at the same location are performed by others which
may affect or be affected by the survey, the licensed land surveyor
or registered civil engineer shall then provide information requested
by the county surveyor without unreasonable delay."

Dave Ryan,
Humboldt County Surveyor

Buck Rogers wrote: .... I do have a situation in downtown L.A. where I have set monuments and the map has not recorded yet. .... So, my tags are out there, but no map on file yet. There is no record for the next surveyor at this time. It seems like there should be something for the next surveyor that happens across my tags, during this time of limbo, to make reference to.

Easy fix. File a CR and reference the Tent Map number. That is, if it worries you. Stuff like this would not bother me. If you are just doing a 1 lot condo subdivision and the parcel(s) do not fall under an RS requirement, just forget about the Tent Map reference