California Surveyors Forums

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These fees drive up the cost of a survey and deter landowners from hiring a surveyor.

I'd like to see ROS fees standardized across all counties, and I'd also like to see some degree of subsidization so that the public at large picks up a portion of the tab in return for the benefit it receives. But I also note that -- in my experience, anyway -- the cost of compiling a ROS almost always exceeds the checking and filing fees, often by a factor of 2 or more. So the "deters the landowners" argument against ROS fee levels is a bit of a straw man, in my opinion.

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It absolutely deters the landowners. I get at least two calls every month from people wanting to build a fence on an unmonumented line on a square city lot that never call back once they hear that the $750-1000 field survey fee just doubled because the fence stakeout will now require a map and an unknown quantity of map checking fees (our county surveyors office is kind of a disaster right now) at a minimum of $300 but usually closer to $500 is what we tell people. I feel that it is way out of hand, the mapcheckers have an open tab whenever someone turns in a map to take as long as they like and sit there and ponder the intricacies of mapping or deed and boundary resolution theory and throw out a few off the wall suggestions (which on subdivisions become mandates) and send it back as many times as they like and check it all over again and bill out whatever they like for it. Last I checked the county engineering tech (non-licensed) bill out rate was around $75 dollars per hour with around $30 per hour of overhead fees tacked on. One company I worked for last year had a client who received a $10000 bill from the county DPW for checking a parcel map.

never call back once they hear that the $750-1000 field survey fee just doubled because the fence stakeout will now require a map

So $1000 for the field work becomes $2000 when you add in the ROS. But how much of that extra $1k is for compiling the ROS? You can't hang that on the map checking fee. It sounds to me like you're really complaining about having to comply with the law and file a ROS.

to clarify, the actual filing fees are pretty consistent state wide. The map check fee is the variable. State wide the fee has quite a range, 2 years ago I did a bit of research and found a range of $0 in Orange Co., $62.50 in Inyo to Butte Co. which has a deposit of $800. Most County's require a deposit and bill for time spent. the average is in the range of $300-500 fixed fee.

Now the other side of the story is the quality of the maps being submitted. Most surveyors submit a quality "ready to file" map which requires less than 2 hours to review, depending on the map. However there is a significant number of maps that are submitted that are not ready to file and some Counties will work with the surveyor to produce the map. This may take several submittals. Which takes time. There seems to be an idea that a map can be drafted and let the County Surveyor tell me what they want.

If all maps were submitted "ready to file" maybe the fees would stabilize or be reduced.

PS. the range of the filing fee was $8-$17 for the first sheet, most charge half the fee for each additional sheet.

Just my 2 cents

Jim Frame wrote:

It sounds to me like you're really complaining about having to comply with the law and file a ROS.

I suppose that I was speaking of two different situations there. I admit that I find the mandatory filing requirement frustrating, especially when the survey fee exceeds the entire construction project budget. I learned to survey in Texas where it was unbelievably simple to stakeout a fenceline for a fencebuilder for cheap and no maps were filed and the world continues to turn...

I would like to hear how you explain even a 10% or 20% surcharge on your research, analyisis, field work and mapping bill to be an encouragement to the potential client. I will truly appreciate that sales pitch if you would be gracious enough to share it with me. You can private message it to me if you like, I assure you I will never advertise to work in the Central Valley, it's too hot and flat for my tastes!

RAM wrote:Now the other side of the story is the quality of the maps being submitted. Most surveyors submit a quality "ready to file" map which requires less than 2 hours to review, depending on the map. However there is a significant number of maps that are submitted that are not ready to file and some Counties will work with the surveyor to produce the map. This may take several submittals. Which takes time. There seems to be an idea that a map can be drafted and let the County Surveyor tell me what they want.

Absolutely spot on, RAM.

The Record of Survey checking fee problem is like the weather, everyone talks about it but nobody does anything about it.

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I've heard from CS staff about the low quality maps being the reason for the high fees. I've gotten maps back from the same CS staff with two chicken scratches and one word somewhere yet the bill was still $800 so I don't think that's the entire problem.

IIRC we got the fee fixed at about $100 maximum 10 or 15 or 20 years ago... (plus "actual cost" got stuck in at the last minute).
Some agencies milk it and go way beyond the mandated check "for our own good"... or maybe some just flesh out their time cards because they don't have much to do. The mandated check needs to be reviewed and perhaps more finitely defined.

Last time I checked, Napa County was $1084 and Sonoma County was $1500, so it IS an issue up here.

Other Bay Area counties are around $600.

I would like to hear how you explain even a 10% or 20% surcharge on your research, analyisis, field work and mapping bill to be an encouragement to the potential client.

I explain it by including a copy of the relevant code section (typically one or more parts of 8762) and the reason it pertains to the client's survey. It's not a matter of encouragement, though; when I determine that a ROS is required, there's no client option to delete it. If they choose not to pursue the work, that's just the way it goes.

For most urban boundary inquiries -- typically they want to build a fence or they're fighting with their neighbor over the location of the line -- I try to talk them out of a survey, since it usually won't solve their problem in a cost-effective way. I encourage them to agree on a location for the fence with their neighbor if relations are good, or to avail themselves of low-cost mediation services if they're not. Probably 80% of these callers end up skipping the survey and thanking me for my advice. The other 20% go ahead, but they've been prepared for the cost and the rationale behind it, so they don't complain.

Jim Frame wrote:

I encourage them to agree on a location for the fence with their neighbor if relations are good, or to avail themselves of low-cost mediation services if they're not..

That's sound advice I think. I'm going to try that tactic more frequently, I was already headed in that direction in that I can encourage good neighborly relationships much easier than I can estimate boundary lines over the phone. At the end of the day of surveying, mediating will be all I can do for them anyway although at that point I may have somewhat more convincing evidence to persuade them with. I always try to encourage that when I sense it is a tense situation. I have started asking "How are you getting along with the neighbor?" as standard practice when I am taking an estimate request as conflicts frequently make the jobs significantly more complicated! The conclusion I am reaching wherein the adjoining landowners develop their own boundary agreements because a fence line discussion is not worthy of the surveyors time or energy is an interesting one, I suppose as our demand increases it becomes the natural result.

I just wanted to add a post about efforts to try to subsidize the process at the State level. The Humboldt County Chapter has proposed on a couple occasions that we put an additional fee on deeds when they record, similar to the Monument Preservation Fee, that would create a pot of money to be used to subsidize the Record of Survey checking process. It has never gone anywhere at the state level because of supposed opposition of realtors to any increase in the cost of a real estate transaction. I have never seen backup on this. Our take is that the Record of Survey, unlike the Parcel Map or Subdivision Map, benefits the public as much as it benefits the person who contracts for the survey by perpetuating monuments and possibly reducing costs for other surveys that will use the same control.

We went to an hourly deposit system here which was supposed to punish those that submit low quality maps with higher checking fees. However, the checking fees have ended up being higher for all, even those that submit higher quality maps.

We are about to have a new County Surveyor here in Humboldt County so we are trying to look at the process here and see what we can suggest for the new County Surveyor to contain costs with our deposit system that have occasionally gotten out of hand. Does anyone know how OC manages to charge no fee for Records of Survey (i.e., where the money comes from)?

The problem with going hourly is the County Accounting Department first looks at all the costs that go into a staff person and develop an hourly cost (Sacramento was about $125/hour from memory). Then the staff person is taken off of office overhead and has to charge all of their time to map checking. Then every person who touches the map has to add time to the bill.

The Accounting Tech puts it in the computer system 1 hr because they have to create a billing account.
The Counter tech takes it in for checking 0.5 hr.
The Checker looks at the map check calcs, deeds, the map, etc even if the map is perfect, it takes 4 hours.

That's why the Sacramento R/S bills were adding up to over $800.

I think if you make it a fixed fee then everyone is on office overhead and the overall perceived costs are lower.

not sure of the funding source in OC. But the believe is it is for the benefit of the public and the Co Surveyor at the time, (Ray Mathe) presented to the BoS and received the support. to clarify there is a fee for RoS that is the boundary of a subdivision. Here I would like the fee to be reasonable and control costs, however my BoS is very clear on how much is funded by the General Fund. I believe if the fees are kept to a minimum, it would encourage the filing of RoS. So how do we address the quality issue? you would not believe the stuff that is submitted. One thought is to set a goal of only one review, therefore all maps must be complete, "File Ready". Being a small rural area, there is no local peer Ethics committee, no CLSA chapter within a reasonable distance, there fore I am the only check and balance between the public and the surveyor. As licensee's we are all tasked with "Protecting the Public". Don't misunderstand, most maps I receive are to the industry standard, it is the few that upset the apple cart.

I hear ya . . .

One of several things could be done. One: any parcel subject to a Record of Survey SHALL obtain a “Boundary Permit” from the agency who’s jurisdiction the parcel is in. To obtain a “permit” one must pay a fee to the County Surveyor’s Office (whatever their current checking fee is).

Why should the surveyor be “on the hook” for something required to present a land owner his/her boundaries? Presently, when a parcel is a “known” to trigger a record of survey, as part of my contract the client is requested to return a check made payable to the County Surveyor for these fees.

If John Q. Public realized how much the exorbitant ones (fees) were, he/she might and should take it up with his/her Supervisor. As one post indicated - sometimes the survey is equal to or less than the survey . . . or a bit more than the survey. In any case John Q. sometimes think we’re charging too much - when in fact the County is a large part of that cost.

Number Two: . . . and this would be a David - Goliath thing . . . would be for the Record of Survey to go from surveyor to County Recorder. No review or signature by County Surveyor. Has there ever been a successful suit against the County over a boundary dispute (with regards to his/her checking? In such an instance, one could hire a reputable surveyor (retired or otherwise) to review your work. When you look at the hefty fees some County charge - I would imagine the County Surveyor’s opposition would lobby quite hard against such a bill. So this probably isn’t an option.

And of course the suggested Record of Survey (liken Monument Preservation) fee with every deed recording.

That’s crazy Phil’s Two Cents . . .

Have a good weekend, all.

Phil - Sonoma

What a lot of folks do not realize is the obligation to file the R/S is not on the consumer, it is the obligation of the Surveyor, whom should plan for it.

In San Joaquin County the RS checking fee is $325.
The philosophy being that subdivision map review fees (which include compliance with conditions of approval of the tentative map) are paid by a developer who is profit motivated.
To the extent overhead costs are borne by the general fund, it is in the public ' s interest to have RS's filed. So it is a bit of subsidizing by the discretionary mapping that occurs through development. There is a lot of fee collection for improvement plans.

Marin County checking fee is $626.

Sonoma County checking fee is $ 688???

Have a good weekend.

Phil - Sonoma

In my opinion, Counties that charge hourly are out of compliance with the PLS Act because it says $100 or some other fee set by the Board of Soups. They are supposed to set a fixed fee.

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8766.5. Record of survey - examination fee
The county surveyor may charge a reasonable fee for examining a record of survey pursuant to Section 8766 which shall not exceed the cost of the service or one hundred dollars ($100), whichever is the lesser. However, this one hundred dollars ($100) maximum fee may be increased by the board of supervisors if such an increase is authorized by a duly adopted ordinance and the ordinance was adopted pursuant to a staff report demonstrating that the cost of providing the examination service actually exceeds one hundred dollars ($100) per record of survey.

I have read this several times and do not interpret that is states a fixed fee must be charged. It states the fee can be the cost of providing the service, hence an hourly fee.

You can ask to see the staff report which justifies those fees.

Bottom line is public agency funding is tight. As more mandates are being placed on County Government to provide services which years ago were not provided. People used to take care of them selves. used to be if the road wasn't plowed you put chains on and went to work, today people call their supervisor and have a hissy fit because there is stuff on the road. for John Q. Citizen, why should my taxes pay to check a survey that was done for 2 quipping neighbors on the other side of the County.

There are very few simple surveys anymore. Most are complex and can not be checked in less than an hour. I agreed the fee should be controlled/limited provided the surveyor submits a complete ready to file map. One way to control the cost is to submit a complete package, copies of all reference materials, deeds, maps etc., all calcs to verify dimensions, adjoining deeds to prove Jr/Sr rights. Yes most Co. Surveyors have access to record info, but, I am a one person operation with many other tasks within public works, so it adds up to time, which I do not enough of. End of rant.

Would it be an option to have a fixed fee deposit of $150 not to exceed $300 for up to 3 page RoS, but if the map requires a third check, all time will be billed. for each add'l page add $50.