California Surveyors Forums

Looking for opinions:

I had a survey done of my home since it's new(client is the Developer building new homes for large tract). The surveyor set hub tacks (not the brass kind, the tin kind you put in a wooden hub for building stakes) in a 1/8" drilled hole with a brass tag. Are they really permanent monuments? Not countersinked. They are already rusting. It's a new subdivision so the whole tract is set this way. Hub tacks in a drilled holes.

I've ask him to replace them with no success (a couple of voice mails, a few emails) except for one that was set wrong and had to be replaced.

Asking as a member of the public not a surveyor since I can't survey my own lot.

My personal opinion: If I were surveying another surveyors land I would personally make sure the crew set everything perfect and set good looking monuments............but we do that on all our jobs. I've never set a wood hub tack as a monument before.

Thanks,

Why can't you survey your own lot? As long as you're licensed and there is no controversy surrounding the boundaries, I don't see the problem.

If you are concerned with the appearance of potential impropriety (even less than the appearance of impropriety), then you can replace the monuments at the positions that the other surveyor determined and file a corner record.

The question is: What qualifies as a permanent monument? I'd like that addressed as part of this discussion and not the self-surveying-clean up after someone else's work issue. If you read the disciplinary actions by the board there is a surveyor who was disciplined by the board for surveying his own lot (of course he screwed up the survey so that was probably more of a factor). It's also the principle: I don't like changing diapers! I paid for the house and the survey and it should be done right. Why should I have to fix it?

A #4 rebar or a 3/4" pipe is the min. size for a monument. I thought this was a state law, but maybe it is only our local county standard.

PLSA section 8771 (a) speaks of monuments set being sufficient in number and durability and efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed, to ensure, together with monuments already existing, the perpetuation or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey.

Monuments set for new lots in a subdivision would be subject to local agency ordinances relating to development requirements under the Subdivision Map Act. These tend to be much more specific as to size and type.

And don't forget PLSA section 8772, where any monument set shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged with the LS (or RCE) number, or name of the public agency.

I've seen local agencies want a slash mark cut into the back of walk with no tag for front corners. They changed this requirement between phases of the phased subdivision I was a party chief on, so someone must have educated them as to the requirement of 8772.

Whether a tack & washer set in a drill hole meets the requirement of being durable, if the question were to become the subject of a BPELSG complaint, will actually depend upon the personal opinion of the technical "expert" retained by BPELSG to review the matter. Personally, I don't think that sounds like a very good monument as compared to other readily available options. On the other hand, I've found several points marked essentially as you described that had remained in place for several decades and several monuments of far more substantial materials that were knocked completely out of position or destroyed within 24 hours of being set.

I don't particularly like the use of a tack & tag for the situation you described, but I can readily imagine a few limited situations where it might be an appropriate option. Without a showing of a reasonably high likelihood that the points will be inadvertently disturbed or destroyed in the near future, I would have a hard time supporting the argument that they do not meet the letter of the law.

My personal opinion of a 1/2" rebar & plastic cap is that it isn't a combination that makes a good and sufficiently durable monument in most situations either, but that's my standard. There are a significant enough number of surveyors who use a 1/2" rebar & plastic cap as their standard monument that it falls within the standard of care when interpreting the meaning of durability in 8771. When we look at a surveyor's actions for compliance, we are to consider them compared to the standard of care, not our personal standard. that means that we also need to recognize when those two standards diverge.

Having said that, I've come to recognize that some, perhaps many of the surveyors retained as "experts" by BPELSG have no recognition that what they do, right or wrong in their own practice may not comport with the standard of care (it may be higher or lower, and the corresponding opinion may be somewhat uninformed as to the actual standard, it may be negligent in not properly viewing the subject licensees actions with regard to the purpose of the standard, or it may be incompetent in that the expert doesn't even know enough to know when he's out of his depth). IMO, if you're not getting any cooperation from the surveyor who set the tacks, you can roll the dice by filing a complaint. Depending on the expert, you may get some satisfaction after several months, or you may end up sorely disappointed and still have tacks & rusty tags in your sidewalk.

In your position, if I couldn't get the surveyor to place more appropriate mons, I would replace them myself and file a corner record. I would then just move on being aware that when I run across that surveyor's work in the course of performing a survey, that I should scrutinize it a bit more closely than I might otherwise be inclined to do to see what shortcuts he may have taken in the stages of the job other than monumentation. Those prone to cut corners will commit clear violations sooner or later, and more than just on a rare occasion. I wouldn't file a complaint on what I consider to be a borderline case, meaning about as likely as not to be viewed as a violation by BPELSG.

Does the Board always go by the opinion of the technical expert? Do they ever reverse their opinions? Get a second opinion from a different expert?

Tag aside, a hole drilled deep enough into concrete is pretty darn permanent.

What does the map of record state? You should consider speaking with the county surveyor also.

I would consider complaining to the agency that reviewed the map and did the monument inspection. The durability of that kind of monument is suspect especially since it is not countersunk. The first errant pass by a garbage truck or a lawn mower will knock that thing out pretty quickly.

good question, point to ponder, what type of wood hub? I am still recovering Redwood hubs set in 1906. Area has burned three times in the last 20 years, yet with a hand trowel and diligence, the bottom portion of the hubs can be recovered. therefore I would say that a wood hub could be deemed as permanent. All depends on other factors, i.e. soil type, activity in the area etc. Oh ya, also have recovered 1870's era wood posts set by GLO.

Just to be clear it's a hub tack not a hub and tack. The discussion of how long red wood stakes is an interesting discussion and I've recovered those myself but it's just a hub tack, not a hub and tack.

The drill hole is just big enough for the hub tack to fit into. This means that a few years from now when another surveyor Tizon of the centerline monuments he's not gonna find anything because that tiny little hole in the concrete is going to fill-in with dust and nobody's going to be able to figure out where the front corners are so they're going to settlement record distances. I'm not inclined to turn this into the state but was hoping to get a consensus on the substandard monument. I am pursuing this further using another avenue that's opened up. I appreciate the comments.

I don't use rebar and plastic caps and I've actually gotten work from clients who are tired of seeing rebar and plastic caps for the corners and prefer the galvanize steel pipe incaseed in concrete. They seem to be willing to pay more for that service too. For subdivisions like this the developers going to pick whatever's the cheapest and I just want to see the monuments set at a minimum standard that's acceptable.

I agree with Olin. I've seen many epoxyed brass discs etc. ripped from the sidewalk. I feel and state on my maps whether epoxy or lead "...set in drill hole" which is about as permanent as I've seen. The landscaper probably won't move it. If the next surveyor finds a 1/8" hole right about where he'd expect a 1/2" tag, well...my opinion
Now, not describing offset location is a different story- where is it, set at 90 or prod of the sideline.
And we usually call those zinc thingies "cup tacks" vs brass tack
JW

Years ago, I used to work for JF Davidson in Riverside. This firm did surveys all over the southern part of the state. The monuments set for many of the surveys were a 2"x2" redwood hub with tack and tag. Many of which are in near as good shape as they were when the were set. The desert seems to preserve these very well. I don't recollect what the Engineers tag number was, but, very old. I am not saying that wood stakes are permanent, but, in this case, they lasted longer than some rebar in a wet climate. One of the oldest monuments (other than Section corners) that I have located was a lead and tag in Manhattan Beach. Once I scraped the tag, I noticed it was a three number LS. I would say, that is permanent.

I'm hoping this new product will resolve the longevity of a lead, tack and tag and replace the ineffective procedures in setting these type of monuments.

Coming out in this issues California Surveyor.

http://www.o-tags.com

Teddy Ohana
PLS 8583

epoxy: there are many kinds, Most are not UV resistant = NFG. the kind used for Bots Dots is very good, if you can find it

sidewalks Bad, curb Good. utility crews don't hesitate to knock out a sidewalk panel and replace it (sans monument)... but that same crew will go to great pains to tunnel under the C&G and not disturb the monument (if that is where it was set)...

tags set on the surface come out real easy with a square nose shovel, but below grade with a tiny divot (one wack with a hammer) and they last a long long time... if you don't smear the top with epoxy and make it illegible.
(avoid epoxy if you want me to like you)

I set many a monument with the white plus black = grey bots dot epoxy. Pretty permanent stuff. I probably still have some Levis with grey epoxy stuck to them.

yoram wrote:I'm hoping this new product will resolve the longevity of a lead, tack and tag and replace the ineffective procedures in setting these type of monuments.

Coming out in this issues California Surveyor.

http://www.o-tags.com

Teddy Ohana
PLS 8583

I like lead with the disc recessed into the concrete. That o-tags drill bit is now on my list of things I will own soon.

Us grey haired people already have lead poison so
we will stick with "L & T", new surveyors might think of epoxy.
Maybe those will be called set "E & T"


Brian

but do they call home?

pls5528 wrote:Years ago, I used to work for JF Davidson in Riverside. This firm did surveys all over the southern part of the state. The monuments set for many of the surveys were a 2"x2" redwood hub with tack and tag. Many of which are in near as good shape as they were when the were set. The desert seems to preserve these very well. I don't recollect what the Engineers tag number was, but, very old. I am not saying that wood stakes are permanent, but, in this case, they lasted longer than some rebar in a wet climate. One of the oldest monuments (other than Section corners) that I have located was a lead and tag in Manhattan Beach. Once I scraped the tag, I noticed it was a three number LS. I would say, that is permanent.

RE 862 was old man Davidson if I remember right. Usually in a 1/2" iron pipe as long as needed to do the job. Then came LS 3018 the son or grand son typically a plastic cap in a 3/4" ip. The 862 was always dependable and set the basis of some good surveying in Riverside Co. As you said there was no problem with the life of 2x2 hubs set at the backlines of their subdivisions that I ever found. Jp

Thanks,I do now remember the 862 NOW!!