California Surveyors Forums

I'm curious about the terminology that most of you use when dealing with a remote POB when writing a legal description. I'm used to seeing the remote point being called a Point of Commencement and the true starting point being labeled the True Point of Beginning. However, another surveyor I talked to felt pretty strongly that it should be POC and then POB, with no use of the word "True".

Here are the combinations that I think are acceptable:

Commencing at -Point of Beginning
Beginning at -True Point of Beginning

I agree that using "True" Point of Beginning without a prior use of "Point of Beginning" is less proper, but not altogether incorrect.

Dave Ryan,
Arcata, Ca.

It really is a personal choice, I use POC/TPOB and most of the descriptions I have seen in San Diego area use the same terminology. Wattles is full of examples of both. The true test of a description is, can it be placed on the ground by another surveyor.
But then there is always the non-surveyor who is checking your legal that you will have to deal with.

I don't feel the need to label the POB as "true" because I never describe a "false" POB.

Not only is calling 2 points essentially the same thing (Point of Beginning) a point of potential confusion, but labeling the 2nd one the "True Point of Beginning" just seems to me to say "I lied to you with that first POB, but you can trust me on this one because I'm telling you it's True".

I was "raised" using POB and TPOB.

It's a totally subjective call, which is why I find it humorous every once in awhile a checker insists I change POB to POC, as if the plat and legal are not retraceable without that very crucial change being made (yes I make the change because it makes zero difference)

Part of my job is reviewing descriptions by others. I won't call for a change for that, but depending upon who submitted it, I may chide them for trying to mislead me with that firs and apparently not-true point of beginning.

Roy Minnick was a proponent of TPOB when there's a prior starting point, and since that's the way I was taught that's what I've always done. I don't recall whether I picked up the "commencing at" convention from Roy as well, but I use it and TPOB together. If there's no prior starting point, I use plain old "beginning at."

I was raised by Wattles and his famous axiom "concise clarity without ambiguity." Thus, in my opinion, "true" is superfluous.

Commencing at blah blah blah, thence thence etc to the point of beginning of this description, thence etc.

My first boss boss preferred: beginning at a point which bears ... from the blah blah blah.

My first boss boss preferred: beginning at a point which bears ... from the blah blah blah.

I'll still do that, mostly if it's a single course from the reference point.

There is an old boat sitting on a trailer on the West side of 101 about 10 minutes north from Willits. It's called the True Point of Beginning. It could be an ocean sportfishing boat. I always see it when I'm driving through Mendocino County daydreaming. I'd bet it belongs to a surveyor but it's looking a little rough and it's a good haul to the nearest water...

I've never seen that. I usually focus on the private airstrip on the west side, don't remember exactly where it is.

My half penny :

I think, whatever is understood is sufficient. Some agencies insist on certain "base and meridians" called out, Others find it acceptable for "meridian" only.
Perhaps the land calls and ties themselves are most important, and whether one commences, begins, truly begins or REALLY REALLY starts at this point is not so large, as long as that point can be recognized ??

Kinda like pondering the use of cup tacks in plastic caps. Its meaningless if the pipe was set ten feet off ??? (lololol)

Meridian only is correct. Look at the Plat and the original Patents; there is no "Base and" in there because it's not necessary.

I have an on-going argument with one of my co-workers about this. Every once and a while I tell him I going to do this Survey in the Humboldt Base and Mount Diablo Meridian or the Mount Diablo Base and the San Bernardino Meridian.

Dave Karoly, PLS wrote:Meridian only is correct. Look at the Plat and the original Patents; there is no "Base and" in there because it's not necessary

How's that? If I call a survey as being in T7N then what am I North from if I only refer to a meridian?

I don't know which 'Plat' (BLM I presume?) you are referring to but the whole thing seems like archaic custom to me. Many of the 1950-1990 surveys around here say XX B&M and now you are the second person I have heard recently say "there is no Baseline". I thought it was the line between T1N and T1S.

It would seem more appropriate to call out the initial point you are referencing to me but the current local custom is to call the meridian and not the base...

It all sounds the same to me and I never would have thought twice about it if someone hadn't decided to call one way wrong. Generally it is the letter(s) prior to the 'B&M' or the 'M' that I am concerned with. Please explain why you feel one is more accurate than the other.

Yep, the GLO Plats and the Patent descriptions themselves refer to Meridian only. That is sufficient to identify the PIQ from the approved plat. The Manuals all refer to lands north, east, west or south of initial points in that manner.

One of our attorneys asked me the same question a couple weeks ago. I explained that either way is OK, but the technically correct way is to call it out as Such-n-Such Meridian, ...

When he asked why some say Baseline & Meridian, I had to speculate a bit that some surveyor, attorney, or title officer way back several decades ago reasoned that where there is a meridian, there must be a baseline and was adamant enough in that reasoning that many just started doing the same rather than try to convince him otherwise.

The GLO established the Meridians. The BLM is now responsible for general maintenance of the PLSS and they've continued to use the same terminology the GLO used. It's their creation, so I figure that gives them the authority to also determine the technically correct way to identify them.

Each meridian has its own initial point (in some instances, like the SBM, more than one initial point), and each has an associated baseline. By calling out the meridian, by implication you are calling out the baseline and initial point associated with it. To me, identifying the Mount Diablo Baseline & Meridian is like referring to the secret code for my debit card as its PIN number (Personal Identification Number Number). It's just unnecessary, superfluous, redundant & repetitive, excessively wordy & verbose.

Hmmm... considering that, it had to have been lawyers that first insisted on it back when many of them got paid by the word.

E_Page wrote: It's just unnecessary, superfluous, redundant & repetitive, excessively wordy & verbose.

Well, we certainly can't have that on our map headings or legal descriptions, it would make them look ridiculous!. Thank you for the eloquent disambiguation. I'm satisfied with attributing the confusion to an attorney. I usually prefer to blame engineers but I don't think an engineer could have dreamed up that bit of madness...

(Someone out there knows who did this)

David Kendall wrote:

Dave Karoly, PLS wrote:Meridian only is correct. Look at the Plat and the original Patents; there is no "Base and" in there because it's not necessary

How's that? If I call a survey as being in T7N then what am I North from if I only refer to a meridian?

I don't know which 'Plat' (BLM I presume?) you are referring to but the whole thing seems like archaic custom to me. Many of the 1950-1990 surveys around here say XX B&M and now you are the second person I have heard recently say "there is no Baseline". I thought it was the line between T1N and T1S.

It would seem more appropriate to call out the initial point you are referencing to me but the current local custom is to call the meridian and not the base...

It all sounds the same to me and I never would have thought twice about it if someone hadn't decided to call one way wrong. Generally it is the letter(s) prior to the 'B&M' or the 'M' that I am concerned with. Please explain why you feel one is more accurate than the other.

I'm not saying there is no baseline, I'm just saying it is unnecessary to add the words "base and" because each initial point is a paired base and meridian, there is never a mix and match, as far as I know. I shouldn't have said correct as if the other way is incorrect. Neither way creates an ambiguity so to say "Humboldt Base and Meridian" is not incorrect, just unnecessary.

I think it is rooted in 19th century legal practice of belt and suspenders legal writing. For example, "remise, release, and forever quitclaim" or "together with all and singular hereditiments, appurtenances, and something else I can't remember."

"does remise, release, and forever quitclaim, and by these presents does hereby remise, release and forever quitclaim unto the party of the second part the following described real property, to wit:"

does hereby remise

getting sloppy Dave, say it all

Peter Ehlert wrote:does hereby remise

getting sloppy Dave, say it all

OH MY GAWD THE DEED IS INVALID!

As I headed south on 101 last week, I mentioned that boat to my wife and she spotted it. We were past it before I could get a real good look or a photo, but it is named "TruePOB". I wonder if it's been there long enough to show up on Google Earth. Might have to give it a look(think I found it but has its cover on...).

Dave Karoly, PLS wrote:I think it is rooted in 19th century legal practice of belt and suspenders legal writing.

Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) - Quotes -

Frank (played by Henry Fonda): "How can you trust a man that wears both a belt and suspenders? Man can't even trust his own pants."

(I'd better knock off that Base on my map headings. It could damage my credibility!!)