California Surveyors Forums

I have some thoughts to share in my latest article for TAS.


http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmerica ... er2016.pdf

Well said Mike. Unfortunately quite true.

Stan King

15 years ago a party chief was explaining to a young apprentice surveyor the reasons for keeping a tidy field book and why we have so many checks and balances built into our procedures. It all boiled down to his ability to defend his solution in a court of law, should it ever become necessary. As far as I know, it never became necessary and it is likely there is a correlation there.

He said that a judge or jury would not identify well with a printout of coordinates.

Does anyone keep a field book log of their work and procedures?

Everyone I see has a really big data collector and maybe some notes scratched on the back of the field plot. Half of the crews don't even carry a pencil in the field.

Hey Pallamary, have you seen anyone try to take the witness stand with a TSC3 or iPhone yet?

Robillard was giving a presentation in Northern California and he stated that
"use of electronic data in a court case was a huge mistake electronic data can
be altered, Judges like there evidence to be pure" nothing better than a field book with rite in rain paper
that shows any kind of erasure, which is signed, dated, weather info etc.

I started with field books (no such thing as a button box) so its habit for me.

Bri

younger surveyors in the office do carry (and use) loose leaf books

Interesting article. My experience has been somewhat different however. Much of my practice has been delving into the messes created by my and just prior generations of surveyors (only part of which is attributable to RCE's).

I said much of my practice. I should have said virtually all of my practice. Surveys in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. Most all being efforts at boundary locations dependent upon poorly performed retracement surveys of controlling boundaries.

Yesterday's surveyors and us greying and fading surveyors have failed today's and tomorrows surveyors. Today's surveyors have better, faster and more accurate measuring tools. However, we have failed to provide them with an accurate cadastre nor a bright line litmus tests in numerous instances. We have failed to codify the law when it comes to accepting or rejecting our predecessor's poorly performed retracement surveys. Instead we rely on a largely incomplete and conflicting body of case law.

In many, many situations, there is no right or wrong answer. Often we are left with few tools to help our clients. One of the best tools we could have to clear clouds of title created by our predecessors is the lot line adjustment process. Instead we have allowed many agencies to make this a planning department process. In many other situations we and our predecessors have created, the adjoining land owners resort to litigation as a means of resolution.

All too often it is us and our predecessors who are to blame. Whether it be because of poor retracements, failures to file and document boundaries memorialized only in deeds, or the plethora of short cuts and out right fraudulent surveys, it is our predecessors and we who have failed today's modern surveyor.

Mr Magee,

Sounds like you work in a difficult area. Maybe a boom - bust area.

Where I practice its never boom so we do not fall very hard, that may explain
why previous surveyors in the area have done a great job and are a pleasure to retrace.

Bri

Intuition. That is what separates the hounds from the pups.

Technology lends nothing to intuition. Intuition is a gift as well as an art, developing it requires lifelong practice.

Intuition is the tool of the professional.

Mr. Smith wrote: Where I practice its never boom so we do not fall very hard, that may explain
why previous surveyors in the area have done a great job and are a pleasure to retrace.

Bri

How about those Benson surveys?

David,

Yes I hear you; and Benson is very frustrating and there is a lot of that up here but, one bad criminal does not
effect all of the surveyors. I remember retracing a GLO Surveyor named Lightfoot circa 1800's and found a lot of scribed rocks.
Lightfoot would have miles within 5'-30' of being cardinal bearing and distance, HOT work in my opinion.

Out here there were many Entrymen in the area way before the GLO was here so old homesteads can be helpful a lot of the GLO notes state encountered
impassable mountains.

I guess my point is for every bad guy there are 50 good ones.

B

I see your point Brian. I just found my first Benson survey over in Trinity and he is on my mind lately.

Working in Humboldt, which is likely a boom or bust scene in your scheme, most of the work was pretty pleasant to retrace as well. Though it seems that on every project there is a head scratcher survey or deed just to keep us on our toes...

What I got out of Magee's post was that we should practice as if it is our privilege to leave this record for our successors and clients and not try to cut corners or shirk our duty.

The rub for me is balancing that attitude with the best interest of the client (and the bureaucratic nonsense)

Yes, Land Surveying is a business and a difficult rope to walk, and now me and you have all those "Gardens" to deal with.

With regards to one's backgrounds and experiences, I have testified more than 100 times across the State of California in addition to testifying in federal courts over the location of the International Border and other matters. I share this only to provide a foundation for my comments; they are not casual.

As is well known, the entire process of boundary line surveying involves retracement, something to be distinguished from the creation of subdivision maps. There is a remarkable difference.

This is a definite problem and it is always difficult to defend a surveyor who does not know what he/she has done. The largest problem with modern surveyors is their blind reliance on GPS data and a lack of visceral mathematical skills. With regards to problems retracing older surveys, that is exactly what boundary line retracement is. Problems with earlier maps and careless surveyors are part of that process.

Mr. Magee, with regards to your comments, you should consider identifying yourself so that your comments are taken in context. You should then write an article based upon these experiences and document your experiences. Most people I know usually share their experiences in public in a positive manner so as to benefit the rest of the profession. It is uncommon for anyone to rebut professional discourse without identifying themselves. Anyone can criticize from the corners of a closet.

This notion of sharing thoughts is something I have attempted to do with this article and the monthly articles I write and the lectures I put on. What makes these lectures of value, as a general rule, is the fact that I am not afraid to identify myself. Indeed if I am challenged, my critic knows where to find me.

You should consider coming forward so that you can publicly face your supporters and critics. Lastly if you are inclined to share your comments, I will see that they are published in The American Surveyor Magazine as long as you are willing to identity yourself. This is one of the many ways to establish credibility. If you want people to take you seriously, you should not be afraid to let us know who you are.

Mr. Smith wrote:Mr Magee,

Sounds like you work in a difficult area. Maybe a boom - bust area.

Where I practice its never boom so we do not fall very hard, that may explain
why previous surveyors in the area have done a great job and are a pleasure to retrace.

Bri

The part of the state I have practiced in is full of good surveys and past and present good surveyors. I don't mean to take away from that. My point is that far and wide the problems I encounter with other surveys are overwhelmingly with poor retracement techniques which are not attributable to measurement techniques and equipment. Overwhelmingly the issues I encounter occurred by persons using transit and steel tape or chain.

And no Brian, your area is really no different than mine in my experience. I've worked on several projects in that part of the State of Jefferson and have encountered a similar percentage of bad surveys there as I have here. I'll share a few stories just for flavor.
On a side note one of the things I remember about your fair city is finding rebar w/ plastic cap set flush in the center of Green Heron Dr. And no, the plastic caps did not prove to be a durable wearing surface. You may know the survey company utilizing that practice?

I recall one section 18 in your neck of the woods. In 1977 Surveyor A single proportioned in the NE section corner as part of establishing the aliquot part breakdown of said S. 18. There was no good reason for using single proportionate method. But, it gets better. 2 years later Surveyor B comes in to establish his client's boundaries inside of S. 18. Surveyor B doesn't even acknowledge Survey A's work exists. Instead Surveyor B first sets a new N-1/4 corner by use of one-point control from the NW section corner. Then, he double proportions in the NE section corner using his new 1/4 corner and the nearest original corners to the N, E & S. There was absolutely no sound survey reason for Surveyor B to use one-point control. No reason given on his map nor any reason based on GLO calls or patents/homestead entries evidence. But, it should be noted, Surveyor B's client gained a whole lot more bottom land than if Surveyor B had used correct proportioning procedure instead of one-point control. And again no, neither homestead entry nor protection of bona fide rights had anything to do with his methodology.

I recall a surveyor from your neck of the woods who rejected a section corner long used and heavily relied on in favor of an unrecorded un-marked pipe that better fit GLO dimensions. This in an area of no federal ownership. Needless to say, close to 30 owners have homes that are now identified as having clouds of title. And, then not 2 years later this same surveyor accepted a very erroneous survey based on absolutely unacceptable survey methods only to state on his ROS that any future retracing surveyor would be entirely amiss to come in and upset the apple cart by using correct procedures per the BLM Manual. Most notable is that survey affects a number of adjoining federally owned sections and really has little affect on private ownership. I spoke with the USFS regional surveyor at that time about his survey and his words echoed my sentiment on the un-likelihood of it surviving a challenge in the IBLA.

So no, Brian, your area is really not that different in my somewhat limited experience there.

So, ya some poor surveys done, we had a County Surveyor here in WWII that would run due East 40 chains and set center sections but at least
he filed maps and set monuments with tags, even had a field book to show his traverse and calcs.

Magee, your are correct no matter where you are we will find stuff we disagree with, even
you may have had opinions that others in the profession may find incorrect, I know I have been wrong before.

Just my thoughts after debating our Land Surveying Canons with 12 to 24 licensed individuals in open discussion.


Bri

It's interesting that when using a sliderule to perform calculations, one had to visualize where the decimal point was throughout the process. When calculators arrived on the scene, this visualization began to fade. The same with COGO programs. Back when calcing latitudes and departures on a traverse sheet, it also required visualization to keep the proper signs for direction. Merely punching the data in - or downloading - takes a lot of faith, and is the reason for degrees of freedom (redundant measurements).

Iam sitting here looking at my CURTA, got to love the COGO even if some of us are slaves to it.

Following Mr. Warren Smith, technology lends nothing to the development of intuition. Cute stories aside.

There are many reasons to stay anonymous; unpopular opinions or criticism of an employer's methodology that might not play well to the boss, or not being insulated from the litigating society as with a govt. employee for example, when comments are offered.

There are even some of our fellow land surveyors who are known in this state (thankfully a rare few) to slander and libel by name fellow land surveyors in recorded maps, encourage clients to report surveyors to borpelsg in order to facilitate and provide ammo for theirs or their client's possible litigation.... Which is the worst vice, that or being anonymous?

Although measurement and orientation are an important element to land surveying. Just as important, if not more so, are evidence, history, inquiry and the willingness to communicate with other surveyors that have worked the area and the residence. If residence are unwilling to talk with you directly, maybe it can be done through their surveyor that might have worked for them. Never avoid inquiring; it's positive and quite often enlightening!

I think anonymity is fine and quite appropriate as long as you are not attacking someone. When you hide behind anonymity and launch attacks, that essentially makes you a coward.

I never meant to be anonymous. And my comments were not to be attacks on anyone or anything. I was only trying to get across every element that a survey should utilize when conducting a survey; especially when there seems to be questions of locations of property lines.

Skip Robinson - Retired LS5862

I agree that too much "surveying" is done at the push of a button. The old story of the survey instructor asking the class what the formula for solving a right triangle was and one immediate answer was "polar to rectangular". Or the final topo map of a plowed field showing spot elevations to x.xxx'.
I hear about programs where you do a traverse in the field hit solve and the computer resolves your boundary on the spot. LOL These are the same computers that TransAmerica issued me a bill for 10 cents, or in the case of a friend last night he received a check for 6 cents.
I do have issue with GPS. I do not know how the computer arrives at the results it gives me, it's referred to as Proprietary Information an that's scary along with the fact that GPS results can be more accurate than it's specifications allow it to be. Then there was the PC that told me he could read a 1 minute inst to 6 sec. LOL
Data needs to be properly analyzed.

Here is the Curt Brown corresponding article to my opinion article.

http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmerica ... er2016.pdf

Skip Robinson! One of my most favorite people in the world. I hope all is well with you.

Yes, we all need to be thinking about property lines. Sadly, I spend too much time looking at these coordinate surveys. What a mess!

Man, I am doing something wrong!!! My license number is almost 200 lower than Skip's and I can't even see a dim light in the tunnel towards retirement yet.