California Surveyors Forums

Section 8726 (f) appears to misuse the term "cadastral"

8726.
A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:
...
(f) Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter, geodetic surveying means performing surveys, in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects thereon or related thereto, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for stating the position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations by California Coordinate System coordinates.

Merriam-Webster's Definition of cadastral:

1: of or relating to a cadaster (an official register of the quantity, value, and ownership of real estate used in apportioning taxes)
2: showing or recording property boundaries, subdivision lines, buildings, and related details


Cadastral surveying would be covered under 8726(c) and possibly 8726(g):

(c) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries.
(g) Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or document prepared or furnished in connection with any one or more of the functions described in subdivisions (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f).


8726(f) appears to use "cadastral" to clarify "geodetic", however they are two completely different concepts.

It would seem to me that deleting "cadastral" from 8726(f) is in order.

Steve,

There is a proposal to update language to accommodate NSRS2022 (or whatever it will be called) that I believe is with CLSA Leg Committee at the moment. Perhaps you could contact them about this apparent misuse of the term cadastral in 8726(f)?

Scott,

I am familiar with the efforts to update the Public Resources Code.

This LS Act cleanup would seem to be better fit for an omnibus bill.

I will pass the thought on to Mike Butcher for consideration by the CLSA Leg committee.

Steve

Momentary brain seizure - two different codes. I agree with your analysis though. Seems odd it got through that way.

I don't believe a change is warranted. A cadastral survey is not limited to the definitions one finds in Webster's Dictionary. It is also an official term for the legal boundary surveys of U.S. Federal lands.
It is my belief the BLM/GLO Cadastral surveyor performs a more true form of geodetic survey than many of today's modern GPS button pushers who spit out plats based in state plane coordinates.
The Cadastral surveyor runs the true meridian and his/her east-west lines are curved (i.e. rhumb) lines. The Cadastral Surveyor's plats are based on this true geodetic basis and as such the Cadastral Surveyor's plats include anticipated misclosure due to convergence of the meridians.
Many an early Cadastral Surveyor had to locate boundaries by locating positions of latitude and longitude. Try that without GPS.
The Cadastral Surveyor can, has and will observe and calculate an astronomic observation every half-mile of traverse so that the field work produced correctly follows the geodetic path the PLSS dictates.
In my (humble?) opinion, the term "cadastral" is right where it was properly placed in the L.S. Act to being with.

Oh yawn.

Statutes are interpreted from the plain-language meaning of the words, and not beliefs such as espoused above.

It is quite a stretch to infer that cadastral is synonymous with geodetic.

It is a stretch to say that, because original GLO Deputies corrected for the latitudinal arc by setting tangent offsets to the nearest few links published in the standard field tables (the red book), they were “true” geodesists.

The “short cut method” of subdividing townships back then was just as fraudulent as the plot-record-dimensions-from-any-two-points, balloon-on-a-stick, surveys of today.

I get the feeling that if I said the sky is blue, he would come up with some belief to argue that it is not.

There is a back story here to explain the bruised ego. If you are interested, give me a call and I’ll go over it with you.

For the naysayer and doubter, consider the following passages: "Many boundaries and most elements of the Public Land Survey System are defined in a geodetic sense" and "A good example of a survey system with significant geodetic components is one used throughout the western United States, the Public Land Survey System (PLSS). "

This is taken from the white paper "Geodetic Aspects of Land Boundaries and the PLSS Datum in a Cadastral Computation System" by true experts on the subject: Jerry Wahl, Raymond Hintz and Blair Parker. You can find a copy of the article here: http://www.cadastral.com/cad-datm.htm

And lastly, remember, the term "Cadastral" is synonymous with federal land survey even though Websters might not include it in their dictionary.

Not to be contradictive, I simply disagree.

William Magee wrote:And lastly, remember, the term "Cadastral" is synonymous with federal land survey even though Websters might not include it in their dictionary.

A BLM cadastral survey is one type of cadastral survey. Not all cadastral surveys are BLM surveys. A Caltrans retracement survey for right of way acquisition is a cadastral survey. Tax assessors perform cadastral mapping. Cadastral is a generic term, not specific to BLM surveys, therefore cadastral is not synonymous with federal land surveys.

Once again statutes are interpreted from the plain language of the words contained therein.

From American Heritage dictionary:

Cadastre: A public record, survey or map of the value, extent, and ownership of land as the basis of taxation. cadastral, adj.

Geodetic survey: A survey of a large area of land in which corrections are made to account for the curvature of the earth.

Separate words with separate meanings. Not all geodetic surveys are cadastral surveys and not all cadastral surveys are geodetic surveys, so geodetic is not synonymous with cadastral.

Foul on the play. Faulty logic and making up his own word definitions. 30 yard penalty and loss of down.

The long used term "cadastral" as utilized throughout the BLM Manual of Instructions, is in reference to a survey which incorporates a unique blend of geodetic, astronomic and plane survey techniques.

8726 (f) recognizes that either geodetic or cadastral (i.e. PLSS) are unique forms of surveying that are prohibited from being performed by anyone other that a licensed land surveyor. I don't believe 8726 (f) is trying to define geodetic and cadastral as being equivalent, rather that either are unique and both are a restricted practice.

Of course the 600 lb gorilla in the room that this debate is missing, is that purely geodetic surveys are being performed regularly by many non-licensed surveyors since the advent of GPS. Contractors and realtors are but a few of the common users of geodetic positioning devices for survey purposes. Eliminating "cadastral" from 8726 (f) wouldn't be the best focus for the effort of a re-write of 8726 (f).

Also, there is the current Local 3 effort to rewrite 8726 as an attempt to stopping the freight train of contractors using gps, automated machine guidance, etc. Even though 8726 contains plenty of teeth regarding this unlicensed practice, the union contract surveyors are reluctant to submit complaints and somehow think that rewriting 8726 will somehow create a change in environment.

And lastly one should also consider that in many states, boundary surveying is the only protected practice for land surveyors. In those many states, anybody can offer to provide topographic and construction surveys.

Considering the CA surveying industry's inability to stop unlicensed geodetic surveying, perhaps we might recognize the reality by removing the term "geodetic" from 8726 (f) (and its corresponding definition) and leave the word "cadastral" alone. At least that form of geodetic work has a relationship with boundary surveying and IMHO the best last stand to make.

I do not buy into that 8726(f) has anything to do with PLSS surveys. No where in 8726(f), or in 8726 entirely, does it mention surveys of the Public Lands of the United States. 8726(f) speaks to geodetic surveying. "Cadastral" is the one odd word that sticks out in 8726(f).

Is the United States still performing original surveys of the public lands in California?

As a political subdivision, what authority does California have to regulate federal surveys?

Property surveys are already covered under 8726(c)

I would not advocate eliminating geodetic surveying from the practice of land surveying in California, and I suspect the semi-anonymous man behind the alias does not really advocate that either. It is a straw man argument to deflect from the issue.

What I had proposed was a simple plain language cleanup of the statute.

Again, if I said the sky was blue, the above example is the kind of argument I would get from him.

Steve Martin wrote:Is the United States still performing original surveys of the public lands in California?

I would imagine there are occasional independent resurveys which closely resemble original surveys. Not sure why this is a question however. Being as cadastral work based on the BLM manual includes both original surveys, independent resurveys, and dependent resurveys by both federal and private surveyors on both federal and private lands.

Steve Martin wrote:As a political subdivision, what authority does California have to regulate federal surveys?

It doesn't. However surveys peformed according to the Manual include dependent resurveys on private lands in a large number of situations.

Steve Martin wrote: I would not advocate eliminating geodetic surveying from the practice of land surveying in California, and I suspect the semi-anonymous man behind the alias does not really advocate that either. It is a straw man argument to deflect from the issue.

As stated previously, geodetic surveys have long been slipping away from being protected as a practice of land surveying in California. I recently witnessed a local college instruct its students on GIS data acquisition in one department, and saw students instructed in another department on use of RTK for construction stakeout. In both instances neither instructor had a background in land surveying, nor was 8726 (f) taught to those students. And this is simply the tip of the issue. It is not whether I advocate for it or not, I am simply pointing out the reality.

Steve Martin wrote: What I had proposed was a simple plain language cleanup of the statute.

And why was the word "cadastral" placed in 8726 (f) in the first place? I believe the verbiage was intentional selected and not due to some haphazard misunderstanding of its definition. Is it necessary to remove it? Would the survey industry suffer if it were removed? Likely no in either case. However I see value in continuing to recognize that the survey methods utilized for the PLSS are part of the protections falling under the definition of land surveying.

This bill - SB 1849 - was originally submitted in the 2006 session to allow County Clerks to establish a retention period for documents. It was expanded in committee to become an omnibus bill amending several Business & Professions Code definitions for various Boards of Registration - including ours.

The relevant legislative analyst's report for floor consideration is:

Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors . The
changes in this bill affecting Land Surveyors [see 2) and 3)
under "Summary," above] have been requested by the California
Land Surveyors Association (CLSA). According to CLSA, these
changes "are intended to update and modernize the practice of
land surveying to the benefit of the profession and the public
which it serves" and asserts that "these changes will result in
enhanced accuracy and, hopefully, reduced costs of performing
services." CLSA notes that the provisions of the Land Surveying
Act are updated and revised periodically as technological
advances are made in the practice of land surveying such as the
use of global positioning system (GPS).

The minutes of Leg Comm may shed some light on the thinking behind the revision.

William Magee wrote: Being as cadastral work based on the BLM manual includes both original surveys, independent resurveys, and dependent resurveys by both federal and private surveyors on both federal and private lands.

Original and independent surveys are federal surveys on federal lands. Dependent resurveys are federal surveys which recognize the bona-fide rights of patented lands and the competent previous federal surveys, (finding where boundaries have become established upon the ground). Private surveys of patented lands are boundary surveys and boundary surveys are covered in 8726(c)

Steve Martin wrote:As a political subdivision, what authority does California have to regulate federal surveys?

William Magee wrote: It doesn't.

There being no statutory authority to regulate federal surveys, all this talk (text) that a certain word in the California statutes really means federal surveys, comes down to a belief that is not supported by the plain language of the statute, or any other fact.

Why do we need "or cadastral" in 8726(f), a section that is all about geodetic surveying?

The usage "geodetic or cadastral surveying" is awkward and unclear.

Boundary surveying is already covered under 8726(c)

There is no need for "or cadastral" in 8726(f)

Just to throw some more wood on the fire...

From Definitions of Surveying, Mapping, and Related Terms, ASCE, New York, N.Y., (1954)

survey, boundary – A survey made to establish or re-establish a boundary line on the ground or to obtain data for constructing a map or plat showing a boundary line.

survey, cadastral – A survey relating to land boundaries and subdivision, made to create units suitable for transfer or to define the limitations of title. Derived from “cadaster” meaning register of the real property of a political subdivision with details of area, ownership, and value.

survey, geodetic – A survey in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth.

A bit of food for thought:

Section 8741 of the LS Act:
The applicant for the second division examination.....the applicant shall be thoroughly familiar with (1) the procedure and rules governing the survey of public lands as set forth in the Manual of Surveying Instructions (2009)....

and from the BLM Glossary of Surveying Terms:
Cadastral Survey - a survey which creates, marks, defines, retraces or reestablishes the boundaries and subdivisions of the public land of the United States.

I would add in response to some prior comments, that much of my career involved locating boundaries of private parties on private lands. These surveys were most often for the purpose of locating aliquot parts from federal patents originally established by the PLSS. As such these private surveys were performed in adherence with and the knowledge of the methods, procedures and practices of the Manual of Instruction of both the era of the original surveys, the special instructions issued thereof, and the current Manual of Instructions.

Again, I see value in continuing to recognize that the survey methods utilized for the PLSS (i.e. cadastral survey) are part of the protections falling under the definition of land surveying. And again, the PLSS is a unique blend of geodetic, astronomic and plane survey techniques.

When you guys finally get this matter sorted out, will you please turn your attention back to the question concerning the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin?

Rather than take one side or the other, the discussion make me wonder WHY or what was the legislative intent behind includinging cadasteral surveying in the same legislative breathe as geodetic surveying?

William Magee wrote:A bit of food for thought:

Section 8741 of the LS Act:
The applicant for the second division examination.....the applicant shall be thoroughly familiar with (1) the procedure and rules governing the survey of public lands as set forth in the Manual of Surveying Instructions (2009)....

Section 8741 of the LS Act rightly acknowledges the importance of knowledge of how the US Public Lands were surveyed and the rules governing those surveys as being critical to being able to retrace on the ground where those original lines are located, i.e. property retracement.

Property retracements are covered in the definition of Land Surveying under 8726(c):
"Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries."

Again, the term cadastral surveying is not exclusive to the BLM. There is no context within 8726 to suggest an intent to limit certain words or phrases to those used in the context of BLM federal surveys. The plain language meaning is to be used to interpret statutes and Ian has provided us the accepted plain language meaning

"survey, cadastral – A survey relating to land boundaries and subdivision, made to create units suitable for transfer or to define the limitations of title. Derived from “cadaster” meaning register of the real property of a political subdivision with details of area, ownership, and value"

Thank you Ian

William Magee wrote: Again, I see value in continuing to recognize that the survey methods utilized for the PLSS (i.e. cadastral survey) are part of the protections falling under the definition of land surveying. And again, the PLSS is a unique blend of geodetic, astronomic and plane survey techniques.

What I had proposed is a simple clean up of an ambiguity in the language of 8726 (f).

If you really want to see an omage to the original surveys in the Public Lands Survey System in the definition of land surveying in California, then, if you are a CLSA member, contact your Chapter Director and have him propose some language to the CLSA Leg Committee.

The best place for that to me would be under 8726 (c)