California Surveyors Forums

I received a legal description written by a utility that complies with the exempt portion Section 8730. This legal description is written in state plane coordinates. While 8730 exempts them from needing an LS write the legal description, does it allow them to establish combined scale factors to convert from ground to grid? While this may be trivial, I've seen where you give a non-licensed person an inch, and they try to take the whole mile.

Brad

I'll defer to Ric on this, but my take would be that the exemption is applicable to writing of the legal description. That is rather specific to 8726(l). The grid factors, scale factors and other comments regarding accuracy are not part of that paragraph. That would fall under (b), (f), and (g).

Nez pas?

Hi Brad, can you provide some more details about this situation? It appears that you're asking whether PLS Act §8730 (c)(2) exempts the non-licensed person from following the standards of practice as related to the use of coordinate systems in legal descriptions. I know that §8771.5 speaks to using CCS on ROS maps, but essentially serves to require the surveyor to show his control network (aka show us the "known" coordinates of the monuments of record that you used to perpetuate the "new" coordinates used in this survey).

That being said, I don't see how 8730 has any bearing on the use of coordinates, scale factors, etc. as related to surveying practice in California. The way I interpret that [sub-]section, in plain language, is: "We're not requiring employees of large utility companies, who [frequently] write legal descriptions for utility easements, to be licensed, HOWEVER, said utility company must have a licensed surveyor on staff who evaluates the non-licensed person's ability to prepare these legal descriptions."

Your question specifically about using scale factors I'm having difficulty to understand. If we allow the use of *any* coordinate system to define points, wouldn't we *want* the preparer to furnish information that relates grid and ground distances? Personally, I would be inclined to verify these assumptions up front to ensure my retracement is making appropriate comparisons, especially in distance. As soon as you pull out the total station, the software is doing that math behind the scenes (assuming you're loading up grid coordinates to begin with).

What is standard practice when it comes to using coordinates in legal descriptions? I do not know the answer to this question and will be interested to hear more experienced surveyors weigh-in. I do understand that something like a PGE easement for power lines could be HUGE! That being said, would I still use coordinates on my map and legal description? As a general rule: I don't think so, but I'm open to changing my mind, especially if there's a reasonable argument for why this approach is the best for said [absurdly large] hypothetical utility easement. I'd be interested in using the bearings/azimuths--derived from grid coordinates-- in order to qualify the basis of bearings for my description, but as a general rule would attempt to control these large courses by means of relation to existing deeds, highways, streams, PLSS lines, etc. and NOT merely rely on coordinates as a means of communicating courses.

So are we talking about a utility easement that relies solely on coordinates, or what?

Ian Wilson:

I am curious, in your opinion, what makes Ric the authority on this question/topic?

In previous years, I do not recall anyone saying "Let's ask Cindi [Christensen] or Dan [Brown]" - the previous Executive Officers.

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful reply.

DWoolley

David,

I never said he was the authority. I said I would defer to him.

If there is a violation or a potential violation, the utility would be sent a letter from the Board.

Ric often posts responses here.

When I have had questions regarding such issues over the years, I have called or emailed Jerry Hurlbert, George Shambeck, Howard Brunner...

Sometimes, I have agreed with the response, sometimes I have not. Nut I have always listened.

To add to the discussion, the Public Resources Code Section 8814 says:

"State plane coordinates may be used for property identification on any map, survey, conveyance, or other instrument which delineates or affects the title to real property or which delineates, describes, or refers to the property, or any part thereof. However, to constitute, when recorded, constructive notice thereof under the recording laws, the delineating, describing, or referring to the property, or part thereof, shall also refer to data appearing of record in any office, the records of which constitute constructive notice under the recording laws. That record data shall be sufficient to identify the property without recourse to those coordinates, and in case of conflict between them, the references to that recorded data shall be controlling for the purpose of determining constructive notice under the recording laws.
(Amended by Stats. 1986, Ch. 611, Sec. 13.)"

Does the description written by the exempted utility comply with the provision of PRC 8814 requiring reference to record data?

Nick,

I should have been more clear, the point of commencement is given as state plane coordinates and the distances are in grid. The legal description references a Record of Survey that has state plane coordinates on it. Also, the description references the year (1986), not the epoch (1984.00) as stated in the PRC, but this is not necessarily a LS issue.

With that said, the legal description does not provide a scale factor. Even if the description did provide a scale factor, doesn't 8726 require the defining scale factor to be done by an LS? 8726 (c) & (f)...(c) is exempt, but (f) is not.

I have no issue with 8730 (well maybe a little), but my concern is when a utility incorporates other portions of land surveying, but doesn't require that LS to sign & seal the work they performed, in this case, establishing a scale factor.

Steve,

The description references a monument on a Record of Survey and then goes grid bearing and distance to an existing easement centerline. It then departs and ends a defined boundary as referenced by deed.

This issue is accuracy of the retracement without a scale factor. To determine a scale factor it should have been surveyed. If it was surveyed (the legal references that a survey was made), a surveyor should be determining the conversion between grid and ground. That definition, since it should be stated on the legal or it would leave some ambiguity, if put on a description would have to be signed and sealed by the LS per 8761.

This is my logical progression for questioning if a grid coordinate and distances in a legal by a utility is practicing land surveying.

I think the utility would be compliant with 8730 by referencing the existing scale factor from the survey. However, they did not reference the existing scale factor and mention the description was based on a current survey.

Brad

Brad,

A couple of other sections of the PRC are pertinent:

8813.3.
(a) After December 31, 2005, when a survey that uses or establishes a CCS83 value or values is shown on any document, the station or stations to which the CCS83 value or values are referenced and connected and the CCS83 value or values and the published or stated accuracy or accuracies of that reference station or stations shall be shown also on the document.

8815.1.
When CCS83 coordinates are shown on any map, corner record, or other document, the map, corner record, or document shall state the epoch (date), in a decimal year format to two decimal places, that is the basis of the coordinate values shown. The epoch shall be shown on the map, corner record, or other document by an appropriate note on the map, corner record, or document or by adding a suffix in parentheses after CCS83 that states the epoch; examples, “CCS83 (1991.35),” “CCS83 (2002.00),” and so forth.

8815.5.
When CCS83 coordinates are shown on any map, corner record, or record of survey, a mapping angle, combined grid factor, and the elevation used to determine the combined grid factor shall be shown on the map, corner record, or record of survey for at least one representative point.

8813 refers to "any document" but 8815.5 refers to "any map, corner record, or record of survey" which may be an oversight, but it looks like combined grid factor is not specifically required in a deed.

The grid scale factor portion of a combined grid factor is a function of the relation of the point to the standard parallels in the projection and so is implicit in a given set of coordinates in a particular CCS83 zone. Elevation factor is of course related to elevation and not implicit unless so stated.

B&P code 8730 in part:

The following persons are not required to be licensed under this chapter:
...

(c) Any officer or employee of an electric, gas, or telephone corporation, as defined in Sections 218, 222, and 234, respectively, of the Public Utilities Code, with annual revenues of twenty-five million dollars ($25,000,000) or more, whenever he or she prepares a legal description of an easement for utility distribution lines and service facilities, provided the following conditions are met:

(1) Each description identifies the corporation that prepared the description and states that it was prepared pursuant to this exemption.

(2) Each corporation has in its employ, or on contract, an individual authorized to practice land surveying who shall be responsible for establishing criteria for determining the qualifications of technical specialists preparing those legal descriptions, specifying the format and information to be shown on maps or documents containing those descriptions, and capable of answering questions regarding the preparation of those descriptions.

I think it would be difficult to make the case that utility deed scrivener is required to be licensed provided they meet the requirement of B&P Code Section 8730. I would call and ask to talk to the licensed individual in the employ of the utility and suggest the edits to the description that you describe and also to be compliant with the PRC.

Aren't we talking about a utility easement? Seems to me there is an important distinction to be made between describing an easement and transferring/creating/dividing real property, which I have to assume is the purpose of the Utility Company exemption in 8730.

In this case, is your task to map this easement in relation to your client's property? And if so, what part of this description is hanging you up?

Steve, thank you for the information. I was looking for the opinion of my peers if using grid dimensions and state plane coordinates in a description by an exempt utility would now require that description to be signed and sealed. From what I see this is a non issue and not something I will address in my comments to the utility.

I have noted the 8815.1 as an issue that needed to be revised and 8815.5 should apply but doesn't as you noted. While mathematically, the grid factor is function of the projection, where the grid factor is calculated from (central location, previously used, etc...) is a professional determination.

Nick, no part of the legal description is hanging me up, but before I provided comments back to the utility I wanted to gauge my peer's opinion on grid distances/state plane coordinates and LS exemptions.

Thank you both for you comments.

Brad