California Surveyors Forums

A contractor is retained to install hand wells for centerline monuments. The contractor installs the hand wells with a 2" iron pipe and a blank brass cap set in concrete in the well. Has anybody seen this happen? Does this action meet the criteria for PLSA §8726(e)?

Have you ever wondered why there are unpunched discs in hand holes? Now you know.

Have you ever tried to punch a disc that is down 6-8"? Center punches are typically 3" in length. Now you know why it happens.

Have you ever opened up a hand hole and found no disc? Contractor didn't know to set it or alternatively, the contractor thought the surveyor's job was to set it at a later date.

Have you ever found a hand hole, surveyed the disc location only to realize the disc is exactly 2.00' from the properly established location? Contractor placed a hand hole and disc on a 2.00' tie and missed the actual monument (2.00' away and the other tie, 2.00' away).

"Has anybody seen this happen?" Nope, never heard of such a thing (wink).

Best,

DWoolley

The contractor installs the hand wells with a 2" iron pipe and a blank brass cap set in concrete in the well. Has anybody seen this happen? Does this action meet the criteria for PLSA §8726(e)?

It depends. I've done a number of monument preservation projects (probably close to 100 monuments, mostly section and 1/4 corners) in which I set the straddlers and hire the construction company to install the monuments. I then punch the caps from the straddlers. It's all done under my direction, so no PLSA violation.

For Dave:

My favorite center punch is a shorty, probably less than 3" long. It's a discarded tooth from a pavement grinder (massive carbide tip) that I sharpened to a point. It'll put a punch mark in almost anything, including concrete nails. But I also have an 8" Dasco in the truck, I use it a lot for monuments that have gotten deep as the result of road reconstruction.

I did find a well once with no monument, and never figured out for sure what happened to the monument -- maybe it was never set, but it's also possible that it simply sank beyond reach. I ended up driving a 5' length of 1" iron pipe to replace it, and I probably could have gotten a couple more feet in there. The soil was really sandy, unusual for this area.

Scott wrote:A contractor is retained to install hand wells for centerline monuments. The contractor installs the hand wells with a 2" iron pipe and a blank brass cap set in concrete in the well. Has anybody seen this happen?

Yes, a few times.

Scott wrote:Does this action meet the criteria for PLSA §8726(e)?

It does if the work is done under the direction of an LS. A key part of the responsible charge though is to ensure that the cap is verified for location and correctly marked/punched.

DWoolley wrote:Have you ever tried to punch a disc that is down 6-8"?

Yes. Unless you have a punch like Jim described, it's a PITA but doable.

DWoolley wrote:Have you ever opened up a hand hole and found no disc?

Yes. That, like a cap without the appropriate markings and/or punch is a failure of the LS who was supposedly in responsible charge.

DWoolley wrote:Have you ever found a hand hole, surveyed the disc location only to realize the disc is exactly 2.00' from the properly established location?

No, I don't recall seeing that one but can well imagine it happening. I did once find a Caltrans cap set on the shoulder near the end of an overpass that had 4 rebar set at angles around the edge of the disc with their tops 0.05' to 0.1' higher than the disc. There was record of the disc (but no mention of "guard" rebar) yet a subsequent RS showed having not found the cap but finding a bent rebar a couple tenths out of position. We went out, swung the yellow wand around a couple times in the vicinity the monument was supposed to be at, got a warbling spike in the whine of the wand. Kicked at the dirt a bit and found the top of a rebar. Scuffed at the dirt again and hit the tops of a couple more rebar. Knelt down, scooped a handful of dirt and found a 4th rebar and a 3.5" cap right in the middle of the circle of bent rebar tops. Facepalm for the last surveyor who was there. Doh!

Thanks for your input everyone. Here is some more information.
Recorded Final Map designates 3/4" IPs to be installed in the wells.
LS established the position for the well and left (2) 90° 2' offsets for all but one well which was in the dirt in a planter.
LS was under the impression that only the well was to be installed.
LS has not checked but is hoping (because LS has seen in the past wells installed on the offset and wells installed where the point lands on the rim) that all the points land on the discs.

LS should file a Certificate of Correction (all kinds of fees), or maybe a Corner Record (no fees)?

wells installed where the point lands on the rim

I've not seen any that bad, but I did one once in which the point landed off the edge of the 1" pipe cap. My solution was to unscrew the cap and replace it with a pipe flange, which is about 4" in diameter. I threaded it on tight, then drilled and tapped the monument point for a machine screw and tag. It was time-consuming, but it worked.

Two ties are insufficient!
There are two intersections of only two 2.00' foot ties.
I saw a survey where the field crew left two tiny paint dots on the sidewalk near each corner to be set.
I'm guessing the calculations were done in the office for the distances to the point to be set and the crew returned to set the corners (actually offsets on the line produced).
And sure enough they intersected the distances on the wrong sides, leaving a 1.0'± gap to the true line on one side and an encroachment of 1.0'± on the other side.
This was commercial property with zero setbacks.
I contacted the owner by mail to warn him of his erroneous survey, but never heard back.
Oh, and the "tags" that were set had no number! (I took one out and turned it over; blank on both sides)