What is a Site Plan?

[Steve Martin]

Looking at the City of Cupertino Survey Requirements raises a couple of questions.

I applaud their initiative to establish such standards and efforts to protect property rights.

Perhaps they should have run the document by BPELSG before implementing it.

Engineering Surveys -

"BOUNDARY SURVEY - A Survey prepared and signed by a Licensed Land Surveyor or qualified
Civil Engineer allowed to practice "Engineering Surveying" showing property lines, dimensions &
bearings, existing found property boundary monument(s), basis of bearings used to prepare the
survey, existing easements, and existing buildings and structures on the property."

Engineering Surveying does not include boundary surveying or relating a survey to established geodetic datums. As written, it makes it appear that a post 82 Civil Engineer can prepare a "Boundary Survey". I have a letter from BPELSG that reviews the limits of Engineering Surveys, but will not attach here.

Also, as written the definition does not include relationship to adjacent tracts of record, contrary to the stated intent to protect property rights.

Finding 2 monuments and plotting record data does not rise to the level of protecting property rights of the adjoiners, or the parcel in question for that matter.

With a little work, the City of Cupertino can make that a more effective policy.

[mpallamary]

Yes indeed!

[PLS7393]

I have done some research into SB9 across the state and it appears as if many cities/counties are requiring site plans. There are several civil engineers (Post 1982) who are offering these services to prospective SB9 subdividers as that is what the local ordinances say.

Isn't a Site Plan for a Subdivision called a "Tentative Parcel Map"? All the TPM's I do show existing topo features as required by planning to satisfy their ordinance(s) such as setbacks to structures, and SB9 does not remove the TPM requirement. The agencies writing these requirements are not surveyors who do not understand what a Site Plan is, and we still have to satisfy the SMA.

All my executed contracts for SB9 subdivision projects thus far, all include the same items as a Non SB9 subdivision projects, so I don't understand what all your concerns are for SB9???

[PLS7393]

Perhaps they should have run the document by BPELSG before implementing it.

BPELSG doesn't have authority over Cities, and they exist to govern over licensees, to protect the public.
I think that's right, but if I'm wrong I'm sure they will correct me. I've been wrong once before, lol.

[Steve Martin]

Perhaps they should have run the document by BPELSG before implementing it.

BPELSG doesn't have authority over Cities, and they exist to govern over licensees, to protect the public.
I think that's right, but if I'm wrong I'm sure they will correct me. I've been wrong once before, lol.

Maybe so, however if the City had clarified just what exactly is "Engineering Surveying" before they put out that unfortunate language, they would not lead some to believe that post 82 Civil Engineers can perform boundary surveys.

[mpallamary]

That is my entire point! Thanks Steve. It doesn't matter what the state law says. The plan intake person will accept a submission by a civil engineer because that is what he/she was told to do. At that stage, the state law is irrelevant.

[David Kendall]

It doesn't matter what the state law says. The plan intake person will accept a submission by a civil engineer because that is what he/she was told to do. At that stage, the state law is irrelevant.

At the intake stage (tentative map) maybe that's true. My understanding is that if the city allows it then the landowner can draft the Tm on their own and submit it for approval. It's just a proposal

For the final filing it could be argued that the new lots created by an engineer who is not authorized to practice surveying would be invalid under state BPC and could create some title issues for the property owner. If the title company and cities and assessors do not catch the error then I suppose it would fall on us surveyors in our local communities to file board complaints.

I have never seen a post-82 civil try to file a subdivision map and I'm willing to bet that they all know better

The sky is not falling.

[DWoolley]

I have never seen a post-82 civil try to file a subdivision map and I'm willing to bet that they all know better

The sky is not falling.

I will take that bet. As a City Surveyor in multiple jurisdictions, I have seen several subdivision maps and legal descriptions with plats submitted by post '82 engineers.

The latest thing I am seeing is a grand spike in pre '82 engineers signing land surveying work product. For many years there has only been a handful of these folks practicing land surveying locally, now they are coming out of the woodwork. Something is afoot. I suspect with the shortage of land surveying licensees, coupled with the spike in wages, the engineering companies are reaching out to their "qualified" retirees and friends. This suspicion is further driven by the fact the point of contact for questions is not the pre '82 engineers (usually a technician).

DWoolley

[David Kendall]

As a City Surveyor in multiple jurisdictions, I have seen several subdivision maps and legal descriptions with plats submitted by post '82 engineers.
DWoolley

Interesting... Then what happens?

[CBarrett]

The latest thing I am seeing is a grand spike in pre '82 engineers signing land surveying work product. For many years there has only been a handful of these folks practicing land surveying locally, now they are coming out of the woodwork. Something is afoot. I suspect with the shortage of land surveying licensees, coupled with the spike in wages, the engineering companies are reaching out to their "qualified" retirees and friends. This suspicion is further driven by the fact the point of contact for questions is not the pre '82 engineers (usually a technician).

DWoolley

Exactly!!!!!
Surveyors are getting harder and harder to find. Especially qualified ones who can get a subdivision checked and recorded in a competitive number of mapchecks and competitive amount of map checking fees.

[DWoolley]

As a City Surveyor in multiple jurisdictions, I have seen several subdivision maps and legal descriptions with plats submitted by post '82 engineers.
DWoolley

Interesting... Then what happens?

We simply kick the map back with a citation the post '82 is not qualified to sign the map.

DWoolley

[mpallamary]

I came across a very elaborate website from a group of engineers offering to prepare and process SB-9 applications. Their license numbers are very high. I sent them an email asking who is in responsible charge of land surveying and no one has replied.

The great question above is, if a civil engineers signs and oversees recordation of a parcel map, and that person is not licensed to practice surveying, what is the status of the recorded map? Is it void? Is it a nullity? Is it too late?

[DWoolley]

The great question above is, if a civil engineers signs and oversees recordation of a parcel map, and that person is not licensed to practice surveying, what is the status of the recorded map? Is it void? Is it a nullity? Is it too late?

I have one of those too i.e. a filed map signed by a post '82. I keep it with the filed map the County Surveyor filed without his signature.

The prevailing thought was the parcels were sold and the conveyance was valid. Understand, that prevailing thought was surveyor porch talk, nothing really became of it that I recall.

Would a certificate of correction be sufficient?

As a collective, are we feigning outrage over site plans to pass the time and keep the conversation alive? Based on the recent threads I had the distinct impression the community's disposition was not to concern ourselves with sustainability and unlicensed folks encroaching on the professional legal technicalities.

DWoolley

[mpallamary]

Indeed! It is a good question for sure. At the end of the day, the map is of record and the property has been sold and hypothecated. It sure makes sense to me to get in front of issues like this through education.

[LS_8750]

Agreed.
Another issue is ADUs. The demand for ADUs is frantic. I'm seeing prefab ADU shops submitting so called "site plans" on behalf of their clients with no survey, no nothing, probably a Google Earth image. Setback issues are taken care of on the back end if at all.
Who is allowing these fake so called "site plans" at intake? I have a list and it is growing.

[mpallamary]

They are accepting them all over the state and now with SB-9, they are being encouraged and made a part of the submittal package. Imagine squeezing some more units into a tight site by fudging the setbacks, lot area, etc.

[CBarrett]

I came across a very elaborate website from a group of engineers offering to prepare and process SB-9 applications. Their license numbers are very high. I sent them an email asking who is in responsible charge of land surveying and no one has replied.

So why aren't we the surveyors putting our heads together and doing something similar?
Dave's comment how we should be coming into the golden age of surveying made me wonder about that...

The topic keeps coming up and I am still unclear, to a degree why is it that surveyors keep missing the opportunities. Actually, I am more interested in figuring out how to cut back on missing the opportunities.

I know in my personal experience, in my immediate environment there are always too many 'keep your head down and mind your business' kind of gatekeepers that frustrate the living daylights out of me while boats with potential business opportunities are sailing away. Then 15 years later, we realize we missed that boat. Half the times I feel like I am in a wrong business.

[mpallamary]

Wish I had an answer. At a minimum it is apathy at a thousand levels.

[CBarrett]

It also seems like we (surveyors in general) lack broader perspective, or broader education or more entrepreneurial spirit.
I've seen a FEW old timer teach the KISS principle, pointing out to people 'you're not that smart'... and people buying into it.

I'm sorry, we all start somewhere, and we're not going to get smarter if we don't stretch ourselves. Yes, it is great to not overcomplicate some tasks in order to keep the efficiency up, but encouraging someone to think they are stupid is, dare I say somewhat repulsive.
There is a difference between having humility, and down right discouraging people from growing. Especially if they want to grow.

[hellsangle]

Most surveyors aren't about how much money they can extract . . . rather more about having a vocation that doesn't seem like "work".
Indoors. Outdoors. We get to exercise both the mind and the body.

What I meant to say . . . most of us aren't in this profession to become oligarchs. We like what we do! And we are paid handsomely for a vocation that doesn't seem like W-word: ("w-o-r-k").

Yep, Crazy Phil again - Surveyor to Recorder
(who lives in a van . . . down by the river! Miss that Chris Farley.)

[CBarrett]

Most surveyors aren't about how much money they can extract . . . rather more about having a vocation that doesn't seem like "work".

Oh man, than I totally missed my calling!
I didn't defect from a communist country with a backpack and $100 in my pocket to sit and idle.

*throws her kitten mittens up in the air in exasperation*

[DWoolley]

We have talked around the various issues.

Putting aside the laws that nobody reads or follows.

Next question, what specifically do land surveyors do that cannot be done by a contractor, engineer or architect? Serious question.

Next question, are the land surveyors, viewed as a collective, preferred to being a subordinate to contractors, architects and engineers?

I have assumed, quite possibly wrongly, the surveyors did not want to be deregulated and would embrace the professional emancipation as engineering companies drop surveying. It has been stated clearly here they do not want to be regulated, hence deregulated?

Do the land surveyors want to go the other way, surrender the potential autonomy that we appear to value so little and let the folks with an education and/or entrepreneurial sense take the the lead and then, cross our fingers they'll hire us occasionally with low bid contracts (not sure what we'll do for them). Say no to site plans, no to accuracy statements, no to underground utility location and associated GIS.

Just say no.

DWoolley

[LS_8750]

"We don't just say no, we're too busy saying YEAH!" -- Ice Cube

[CBarrett]

We have talked around the various issues.

Putting aside the laws that nobody reads or follows.

Next question, what specifically do land surveyors do that cannot be done by a contractor, engineer or architect? Serious question.

Next question, are the land surveyors, viewed as a collective, preferred to being a subordinate to contractors, architects and engineers?

I have assumed, quite possibly wrongly, the surveyors did not want to be deregulated and would embrace the professional emancipation as engineering companies drop surveying. It has been stated clearly here they do not want to be regulated, hence deregulated?

Do the land surveyors want to go the other way, surrender the potential autonomy that we appear to value so little and let the folks with an education and/or entrepreneurial sense take the the lead and then, cross our fingers they'll hire us occasionally with low bid contracts (not sure what we'll do for them). Say no to site plans, no to accuracy statements, no to underground utility location and associated GIS.

Just say no.

DWoolley

Saying NO (in part) has gotten us to this point of stagnation. (Leave me alone I have this legal description to do and I am already overtaxed).
It takes a lot more courage and confidence to say yes - and then mobilize and adjust to the demand.

[mpallamary]

Can anyone tell me what a "Legal Survey" is?

What Is a Non-Certified Site Plan?

What are "dead-on measurements?"

As I have oft stated, they assert that the "permit authorities" are the ones that determine when a certified site plan is needed....

Per the site below:
********************************************


A non-certified site plan is one that can be created by a homeowner, unlicensed individual, or a company like My Site Plan.

We use GIS (Geographical Information System) lot lines, satellite imagery, and client provided information to create the first draft which is sent to the client to verify dimensions. If you need any dimensions adjusted just mark them onto the draft and send back to us. We take care of those free of charge. We make no representation regarding the accuracy of our sources.

As long as a certified plan isn't required for your project, we stand by our work with a money-back guarantee.

What Is a Certified Site Plan?

A certified site plan is a site plan that is prepared by and stamped by an architect, engineer, or surveyor and requires a high level of accuracy. This will require a visit to your site.

Often, permit authorities will require a certified site plan for building additions or lot subdivisions where having dead-on measurements is a must. Every city is different, so it is always best to call to verify requirements before ordering a plan.


https://www.mysiteplan.com/products/plo ... =386904444