California Surveyors Forums

When Does Boundary Surveying begin?

Definitions from PE Act
2020 Professional Engineers Act (ca.gov)
PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS ACT (Business and Professions Code §§ 6700 – 6799)
INCLUDES AMENDMENTS MADE DURING THE 2019 LEGISLATIVE SESSION
(Effective January 1, 2020, unless otherwise noted)

6731. Civil engineering defined: Civil engineering embraces the following studies or activities in connection with fixed works for irrigation, drainage, waterpower, water supply, flood control, inland waterways, harbors, municipal improvements, railroads, highways, tunnels, airports and airways, purification of water, sewerage, refuse disposal, foundations, grading, framed and homogeneous structures, buildings, or bridges:

6731.1. Civil engineering – additional authority for engineering surveying. Civil engineering also includes the practice or offer to practice, either in a public or private capacity, all of the following:
(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731. (b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry. (c) Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a) and (b). (d) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data pursuant to subdivisions (a), (b), and (c).

6737. Exemption – An architect, who holds a certificate to practice architecture in this State under the provisions of Chapter 3 of Division 3 of this code insofar as he practices architecture in its various branches, is exempt from registration under the provisions of this chapter.

From this information it appears that Civil Engineers and Architects are licensed to perform a Topographic Survey which we typically define as locating and drafting structures, curbs, utilities, trees, etc. and providing grades and contours with the exception of determining property lines (except Pre-82 engineers). They also must be competent enough to have responsible charge of the work.

The question is where does boundary surveying start and stop?

In the following examples, “architect” could be an architect or post 82 civil engineer. In each case the architect/engineer prepares his own site plan by measuring the location of the buildings, street curbs, fences and other improvements himself or with the use of his subordinates. The site plan is submitted to the authority having jurisdiction in order to acquire a building permit.

Example 1: The architect hires a surveyor to set property corner monuments. The architect then goes to the site and measures the property corners as set by the surveyor and the rest of the site. He states on his plan that he found property corner monuments per a survey done by John Smith Surveyor. The signature and seal of the surveyor is not found on the site plan or any other plan sheet.

Example 2: The architect is provided by the owner of the property a survey of the site from 30 years ago showing the boundary with monuments set. The property owner shows the architect the monuments he was shown when he bought the property. Some monuments are tagged with the license number of the surveyor and others are not. The architect/engineer measures these monuments and the improvements and prepares the site plan. He shows the property line measurements exactly per the recorded survey.

Example 3: The architect has the original subdivision map from 1950 and the lot in question is one of the lots shown on the map. The original subidivision map does not state anything about monuments being set at all lot corners. He finds two pipes at the apparent property corners and uses them to measure from and shows the other property lines based on the two pipes and the original map. The measurement between the pipes is 3” different than the record but he shows the property lines exactly per the original map.

Example 4: The architect has the original subdivision map from 1950 and the lot in question is one of the lots shown on the map. He goes out to the field and finds the fence corners and accepts them as the property corner monuments and then measures the site and prepares his plan.

Example 5: The architect is provided a grading/site plan from a previous remodel of a commercial site. The grading/site plan was prepared by a licensed architect. No indication of the source of the boundaries are on the plan. There are dimensions on the plan from the building to the property line. He digitizes the hardcopy plan and then in CAD draws the site plan by tracing over the lines and using whatever dimensions are shown on the plan. Property lines are shown just as they appeared on the grading/site plan.

Example 6: Same as example 5 except the set of plans includes a Boundary and Topo map showing the original site before the partial remodel was done. The Boundary and Topo is prepared and signed by a licensed surveyor.

Ken Wilson
LS5571

Not sure architects qualify to perform engineering surveying per 6731.1 or civil engineering per 6731. That's news to me.

To pose this same question a bit differently, what is a "fixed works"?

Please see attached for Board opinion on definition, or discussion concerning the term "fixed works".

In light thereof, what is a survey monument? Is it something permanent? Perhaps geographically fixed? Might a survey monument qualify as a "fixed works"?

According to the “Building Official Information Guide” published by the California Architects Board, 2019:

[Question] “9. May architects certify elevations of structures on a site when such certifications are required by building officials?

[Answer] Yes. However, the certification must be based on survey data furnished by licensed land surveyors or appropriately registered civil engineers.
(Ref.: BPC §§ 5500.1, 5536.26, 8700)”

“18. Are architects authorized to perform surveys without a land surveyor’s license or civil engineer registration?

No. (Ref.: BPC § 5500.1)”

[Under section titled “Land Surveyors”]

“2. Can licensed land surveyors prepare and sign site plans?

No. Land surveyors are limited to preparing and signing documents relating to their survey services, such as location of property lines or boundaries, topographic maps, site elevations, etc. They are not licensed to plan the improvements of a site.
(Ref.: BPC § 5537.7)”

According to a BPELSG letter, Re line “Incidental Practice of Land Surveying by Civil Engineers”, dated October 4, 2012, the civil engineers are limited to land surveying services they may offer. Please see attached.

DWoolley

Dave and LS 8750
Thank you for your responses. However i still have questions.

1. Current wording of the PE Act differentiates between "engineering surveying" and "land surveying". Engineering surveying is defined in 6731.1 (as shown in my first post) to include locating fixed works, determining elevations and contours and computer work associated with that which includes drafting the results. Therefore, Land Surveying as described in 6731.2 must be anything other than what is described in 6731.1. Also there is no limitation that the work in 6731.1 must be "incidental" to the civil engineering work being done.

6731.2. Civil engineer – authority to offer to practice or procure land surveying
Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform that work, provided all the land surveying work is performed by, or under the direction of, a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying. Further, any registered civil engineer may manage or conduct as manager, proprietor, or agent, a civil engineering practice which offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental land surveying work.

2. If an architect is "exempt" from the PE Act, it appears that this means an architect can practice civil engineering. I have not recently looked at the law for architects. Is there a limitation there that precludes an architect from measuring elevations and fixed works as in 6731.1? Are they limited to doing this for their own projects only?

I need to know this so i can advise clients of what the law is regarding their project. If an architect only wants me to survey their boundary and then they go out and measure the building, curbs, etc. (and has the skills to do so competently), is he in violation of any laws?

Search Phrase:
Code Text
Business and Professions Code - BPC
DIVISION 3. PROFESSIONS AND VOCATIONS GENERALLY [5000 - 9998.11] ( Heading of Division 3 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 30. )

CHAPTER 3. Architecture [5500 - 5610.7] ( Chapter 3 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 33. )


ARTICLE 1. General Provisions [5500 - 5502] ( Article 1 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 33. )


5500.1.

(a) The practice of architecture within the meaning and intent of this chapter is defined as offering or performing, or being in responsible control of, professional services which require the skills of an architect in the planning of sites, and the design, in whole or in part, of buildings, or groups of buildings and structures.

(b) Architects’ professional services may include any or all of the following:

(1) Investigation, evaluation, consultation, and advice.

(2) Planning, schematic and preliminary studies, designs, working drawings, and specifications.

(3) Coordination of the work of technical and special consultants.

(4) Compliance with generally applicable codes and regulations, and assistance in the governmental review process.

(5) Technical assistance in the preparation of bid documents and agreements between clients and contractors.

(6) Contract administration.

(7) Construction observation.

(c) As a condition for licensure, architects shall demonstrate a basic level of competence in the professional services listed in subdivision (b) in examinations administered under this chapter.

My Rule of Thumb has always been that if anything is shown relative to a boundary line or shows the positions of survey monuments, it's land surveying.

Anyone pointing out a monument and identifying it as a particular corner is practicing land surveying.

"Oh! Look! A survey monument! How exciting!" - NOT surveying.

"Oh! Look! That's marking your property corner!" - LAND SURVEYING.

I used to have a couple of PE clients who loved to do their own topos for custom grading plans. They would go out, set control and shoot the topo. Then, they would call me to locate the boundary and send them a plat showing the resolved boundary and the relative locations of their control points. If they were turning in a tentative map, they would drop by to have me sign and stamp as the surveyor on the survey portion.

An architect client of mine asked me this morning if I could prepare a demolition plan. I said that it was outside my area of expertise, and probably outside the scope of my license. But I don't really know about the latter.