California Surveyors Forums

I would like to issue a challenge to the association. I would like for the membership to describe the biggest challenge facing the land surveying profession (notice I did not use the term industry), and then to do something about it.

I will start.

The biggest challenge for us is the encroachment of others into land surveying practices. My solution is to lobby the state licensing board to adopt this problem and to be proactive with regards to enforcing the PLSA. We need to legislate a hard line as to the use and application of GIS data and to assure that a land surveyor is retained to obtain and interpret this data. We need a task force to define this level of GIS data and to adopt cadastral based standards that will be enforced.

I'm in, I agree.

I have to explain to engineers, architects and clients almost daily how supposed 'cadastral' linework available from most municipalities and counties California is not sufficient precise (or accurate in a number of places) to be used for right-of-way takes and similar 'cadastral operations'.

Then surveyor is the bearer of bad news and the bad guy because it will cost a lot more.
Perhaps we should be, we (as a profession) helped create this situation. We are very far away from 'protecting public interests' by the situation that exists today.

Since there is no 'survey budget' on a number of these projects, it is left to the municipality who wrote the project specifications and the PE to figure out what to do about the ROW takes and a general street centerline alignment too. In areas of old construction, circa 1920's , without reliable current survey maps, along several miles of a six lane road which was 'always there' in a dense urban area with high real estate values.

How many cases like this have ended up in court or as insurance claims. How do you convince people to do proactive rather than reactive legislation? People have a hard time investing time and energy in proactive measures, when they can't quantify how it affects their pocket book today.

Of course, If I had a penny, I mean a budget, every time someone wants me to work off of California 'cadastral data' .....

mpallamary wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:48 am We need to legislate a hard line as to the use and application of GIS data and to assure that a land surveyor is retained to obtain and interpret this data. We need a task force to define this level of GIS data and to adopt cadastral based standards that will be enforced.

Mr Pallamary-

My understanding of the recently proposed "accuracy statement on work product" discussion (which you adamantly lobbied against in your prolific forum posts) was that it was specifically designed to serve this purpose.

If this is such a huge problem in your practice and you don't like that particular proposed solution then do you have any alternative suggestions on how to accomplish this goal?

Happy New Year David! I hope this note finds you healthy, well, and prosperous. I am not certain your reply addresses my post. Am I to understand that you believe the greatest challenge to California Land Surveyors is accuracy standards? Perhaps I should run a poll to see if that is the case.

Many thanks as always for your thoughts!

Be safe.

Hi David, I threw together a quick poll based upon things I have observed. Let me know if anything else should be added. I figure the best way to control it is for everyone to pick their top three.

Happy Holidays!

mpallamary wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:02 pm Am I to understand that you believe the greatest challenge to California Land Surveyors is accuracy standards?

I believe the accuracy statement discussion was intended to address the problem you expressed as "the use and application of GIS data and to assure that a land surveyor is retained to obtain and interpret this data"

It seems that you are talking in circles....

Let us keep it simple then. What would you propose to the task force as a possible solution to this problem which you have identified? Any ideas?

Hi David,

There seems to be some disunity with regards to our focus, particularly with regards to the accuracy standards. I am merely seeking a consensus as to where we should be going. As best I can tell, it seems a lot of folks are not on board, or unaware of what is going on.

I have been active in the association for about 45 years and continually strive to stimulate debate and focus. There are a lot of younger surveyors out there who should be leading the charge. In my opinion, and that of Curt Brown, we lose direction when we get lost in equipment. We should focus on the more important elements of the profession, ones that distinguish us from others. Watching and hearing two surveyors debating accuracy, like angels dancing on the head of a pin, does not benefit the profession. "You're off by two hundredths!" Being literate and able to communicate and to adopt practices that set up apart, is far more fruitful. In my opinion, at the end of the day, we are losing ground.

Did you take the poll?

When was the last time you took a course in ethics? This is not a personal question, it is merely a rhetorical question for all surveyors.

I hope you have a safe and happy new year!

SURVEYORS SERVICE TO SOCIETY

By Curtis M. Brown

September 1971

TECHNICALLY, I have retired. From a practical point of view, I am still a land surveyor. Although my introduction may have given the impression that I spent more time in the office than in the field, it is not true. By far, the majority of my time was spent packing a transit, chaining lines, and brush cutting. Like most backwoods people, I was not very fond of running a large office. I believe I retired early to get rid of administration problems.

Recently I was asked, “What one thing, above all others, does the land surveyor offer?” My answer is knowledge. Many people can measure; few have sufficient knowledge to know where and what to measure.

In 1933 when I graduated from college, I had what was considered an excellent education. Photogrammetry was barely mentioned. I was not exposed to matrix problems. Of course, we used logs to solve all of our problems. Hand crank calculators were the best available. Unknown and uninvented were the electronic-measuring devices and electronic computers. By today’s academic standards we were undereducated in the sciences and overeducated in how to do its subjects.

Things change. I recently took time to study some of my old records in retrospect. I found sheet after sheet of traverse computations with sine, cosine, bearing, distance, latitude, departure, double meridian distances and area all neatly tabulated by hand. Out of curiosity, I took one complex traverse, ran it through my electronic computer and found that I could do the job in one - tenth of the time shown on my old time sheets.

Some years ago we “brushed” a line one-mile long and measured it all in two days with three men. A short time ago we remeasured the same line with modern equipment and knowledge and found that it could be done in one-half hour with two men. We also found a small error in our original work.

The moral to this story is that if we try to do today’s job with yesterday’s knowledge, we will be out of business tomorrow.

It is my opinion that the half-life of my college education was ten years; that is, half of what I learned in science and engineering was obsolete or insufficient ten years later. No man in business can afford to stand still; he either gains knowledge by continual study or he falls to the wayside. Ignorance is voluntary misfortune.

Within the United States, surveyors have been able to convince the legislators that registration benefits the public. At no time has the object been to give the surveyor an exclusive franchise for the purpose of earning more money. The state has been willing to legislate registration laws on the condition that the public be protected from the incompetent and the unscrupulous. In exchange for this exclusive franchise, surveyors have public obligations. It is not unreasonable that the public should expect surveyors to devise systems whereby the certainty of property line location is assured. The public should look upon the surveyor as a fair and impartial person who places boundaries where they belong, regardless of who he is working for. Two surveyors, each contending for a different location for the same point, can only cause degradation of standing.
If surveyor organizations continually fight for legislation that benefits their selfish interests and increases their prospect of financial gain, it can be expected that the public will contemplate rejection of the surveyors’ exclusive rights. We, as surveyors, must not view things in the light of what would be most beneficial to us; we must think in terms of what is beneficial to the public.

We must grow, not swell. With these thoughts in mind, what can we do that will benefit the public and yet at the same time, if possible, be of benefit to surveyors?

In the matter of locating boundaries, to me, there is nothing more important than preservation of evidence. Examinations for registration prove a surveyor’s competency to make measurements; they prove a person’s proficiency in mathematics. Letters from qualified people may prove the examinee’s integrity and honesty. But this alone is not sufficient; a surveyor must understand the laws of evidence. Every boundary survey must start from a point on the surface of the earth, and the validity of that starting point is dependent upon evidence.

The law is exact and specific: Wherever the original surveyor set his original monument, that spot is the correct location for that corner. If we are to preserve that original position, we must have a continuous chain of records from the time of the original setting of the monument to the present. The original surveyor may have set a wooden stake that was later replaced by an iron pipe. At a later date the iron pipe may have been removed by highway construction and new reference points set. Who can prove what happened without a continuous chain of records stating what was done? Without question, more property line disputes arise from loss of evidence than from any other cause. The surveyor locating property lines from incomplete evidence can find himself paying out large sums for erroneous monumentation.

Mutual interest of both the public and the surveyor demands that evidence of monument positions be filed as public records. This produces harmony and exchange of knowledge between surveyors.

Contrary to the thinking of some, these provisions of the law have proved to be of far greater benefit to the surveyor than they have been a detriment. Quite often in my former office we got referral work merely because the adjoiner identified my license number on a property corner. The major benefit from the usage of numbers on monuments is the free exchange of information. A proper location for a corner can only be determined after an evaluation of all the evidence. By the time the second surveyor arrives on the scene, part of the evidence that the first surveyor observed may be gone. If the first surveyor is identifiable by a license number on his monuments, a telephone call usually brings a satisfactory explanation of differences in location.

The old concept that the surveyor’s records are his personal secret - not to be disclosed to anyone - is gradually dying out. In California’s Owens Valley we have two lakes. One is fresh and trout are in it. Trees spread their branches over it and children play along its shores. A river flows into this lake and out to a second lake. Here, in the second lake, are no fish and no children’s laughter. Travelers choose other routes. Neither man, beast nor fowl will drink of its waters. There is a difference between the two lakes. The first lake receives fresh mountain water. For every drop that flows in, another drop flows out. The other lake is shrewder. Every drop it gets, it keeps. The first lake receives and gives, the second lake receives, does not give, and is salted to death. Are we going to be like the first lake and receive and give information, or are we going to be like the second lake and jealously hoard professional information?

The law of every state should provide a place for the filing of surveyor evidence records and, under certain circumstances, it should be mandatory for the surveyors to file their records.
In some cities and counties the surveyors are surprised to find that no one will accept their plat records. The Forestry Department of the U.S. Government has been instrumental in trying to get laws passed to provide public depositories for their records. The acts in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Montana probably had their inception from foresters engaged in public land surveys.

Knowledge is a useful tool, and it is of value only when it is used. In the business world, if you cannot convince others that they should pay you to raise your knowledge, you may never have the opportunity. The fundamental precept of all human relationships is that it is not sufficient to be right, you must also persuade. An idea that must be acted upon by others is useless until such time as others can be persuaded to act upon it. That is the art of letting others do what you want done. A man may be a veritable Encyclopedia Britannica so far as his store of knowledge is concerned, but all of his mental efforts will be of no avail unless he can convey to others what he knows and thinks.

Within the last 10 to 15 years, engineers, surveyors, and many others have been doing a lot of soul searching. It seems that everyone wants to have a magic name attached to their particular service. Some have been exceptionally vocal in proclaiming themselves as professional people. We have all kinds of so-called professions: professional boxers, professional baseball players, professional real estate brokers, and the oldest profession. Even proclaiming yourself as being a professional man has its dangers. One time in riding down an elevator with my wife, a shapely thing got on at the 10th floor, gave me that sexy look and said, “Mr. Brown I haven’t seen you recently.” My wife’s frozen glare could have stopped a clock. After Blondie got off at the third floor my wife asked, “What was that”? I said, “Just someone I met in a professional matter.” My wife asked, “Whose profession, yours or hers”?

I have not yet heard a doctor, attorney, priest, or professor saying I am a professional attorney, doctor, or professor. Everyone knows they are. It is a failing of people that they want the title without the effort, the degree without the education, heaven without probation. People usually get what they earn.

No one acquires standing by self-proclamation. Because of behavior, knowledge, integrity, ethics, skill and service to others, people have acclaimed doctors as belonging to the professions. It is others who bestowed the title upon them. If surveyors behave and act like professional men over a long period of time, then and only then will the public and their peers recognize them as such. It is the total picture of an individual that determines his standing; surveyors cannot be biased towards their own interests.

What is the future of land surveying? It is whatever you make it. You are the ones who are carrying the ball. You can tell some people by their mortgages, others by their deeds. As Shakespeare once said,

Men at some times are masters of their fates.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.

For thousands of years surveying has depended upon its members as individuals for those creative achievements of mind that have guided it along the path of professionalism. When an idea comes, where does it originate? From the crowd? Never. The individual? Always. It is he and he alone who transmits ideas to his fellowmen. Wisdom and virtue cannot be forced from a crowd. There is no such thing as general intelligence. There is only individual intelligence communicating ideas to individual intelligences. There is no such thing as group professionalism; there is only a composite of individual professional standings.

One thing is certain, if we are going to acquire a standing or position in society, we must earn it individually by our own efforts. No man can acquire honesty by merely saying, “I am honest.” No man can acquire respect by saying, “I should be respected.” No man can acquire an education by merely saying, “I am educated.” Our individual actions, effort, and behavior are the proof of what we are. The sum total of all our individual actions is proof of what we are as a composite group, and the composite group is no better than the individuals. I hope that each of you, as an individual becomes recognized as a professional man, then all of us as a group will be acclaimed as a profession.

(Note: for full version of this article, see The Curt Brown Chronicles)

This conversation could have been a lot more if both of you were not preoccupied with hitting each other up side the head with walls of text.

Drop the ego stroking and status management and have a real conversation. But what do I know, I'm just a 30-year in newbie, the uninitiated.

I am going back to my little corner to herd cats. It tends to produce more results.

mpallamary wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:17 am There seems to be some disunity with regards to our focus, particularly with regards to the accuracy standards.

When was the last time you took a course in ethics? This is not a personal question, it is merely a rhetorical question for all surveyors.

My last ethics course was PHL 318 at the University of Texas in the Spring 1998 semester. It was taught by Louis Mackey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mac ... ilosopher), AKA this Old Anarchist guy in the blue guaybera:

https://youtu.be/Muo5o2xeq0w

If there were a hundred like him around today, it would change the world

We read Gorgias by Plato. I still have my copy

In Spring Semester 1995 I took PHL 311 Argument taught by Harvey Cormier (if I recall correctly). That is the extent of my philosophical training although I enjoy it immensely.

Spring may be a philosophical time of year for me.....

w/r/t accuracy standards vs accuracy statements it appears we are discussing two different matters. Accuracy standards to me would mean something about rural vs urban or travers closure ratios. Accuracy statement, the prior discussion which was debated on this CLSA forum and currently has a BOD discussion in the Legislative Committee, is a proposal to require accuracy for GIS applications (most relevant I believe to the recent utility mapping legislation - I'm not certain of the exact law but it may be this one: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... 20220AB930). The idea is that only surveyors would be allowed to certify to the accuracy of the utility mapping and underground line locations. Presumably this would be GIS mapping although I don't know that to be the case.

From a philosophical standpoint, it could be argued that a map is a GIS in the classical sense.

I do not know if I support the accuracy statement on work product idea although I find the discussion interesting.

I would like to know your thoughts on this matter, I believe I understand that you are against accuracy standards for surveyors and I generally agree with you on that.

I have completed the poll.

Thank you for the discourse and happy new year!

mpallamary wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:17 am When was the last time you took a course in ethics? This is not a personal question, it is merely a rhetorical question for all surveyors.

During the recession I spent 4 years in college working on an 'american degree' since the one I completed in '87 in a turd world country is unaccredited. Circa 2012 to 2016.

This included about 30 units of 'general ed's level classes, in psychology, sociology, philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, business, HR management (I took enough management classes to be elegible for a certificate), (I was able to test out of hard sciences like math and physics and chemistry and spend more units on personal electives).

My other grandfather, who wasnt a surveyor, was doctor of philosophy, and eventually a Lawyer. There are volumes that can be learned from some of his books.

My other grandfather 'just' co wrote a geodesy textbook we used in school, back in the old country. It was rather beat to be babysat by him and having him set up a 1940's theodolite on a window sill, point it at the stars an tell me stories about the land and universe (simplified for a 5 year old, that I was at the time.)

What specifically is it that you'd like to discuss about ethics?

I lecture across the country on ethics where every other state requires it as part of continuing education. I believe that we live in an odd world where ethics are not considered important. I encounter far too many unethical people in business in general and in society. Too many people lack any ethical training. Basically, they cannot distinguish right from wrong. If there is an interest and/or consensus, CLSA should rise to the occasion and offer some programs or classes in ethics as opposed to arguing over the speed of light.

See attached and below:


https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.njspls.org/re ... ETHICS.pdf

https://www.plsc.net/docs/PLSC_Code_of_Ethics.pdf

https://www.uwsp.edu/conted/Pages/Surve ... andout.pdf

https://pdhonline.com/courses/r104g/r104g_new.htm

mpallamary wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:41 pm I lecture across the country on ethics where every other state requires it as part of continuing education. I believe that we live in an odd world where ethics are not considered important. I encounter far too many unethical people in business in general and in society. Too many people lack any ethical training. Basically, they cannot distinguish right from wrong. If there is an interest and/or consensus, CLSA should rise to the occasion and offer some programs or classes in ethics as opposed to arguing over the speed of light.

Well, I am about to start a book club here, and probably cross pollinate in my facebook group (we also have leadership book clubs at work, with about one book a month)

Ethics sounds like a very good topic to tackle.
I will read through the materials that you have to get up to speed.
It would be good if we can find videos or audio presentations already, which tackle specific topics. Audio visuals broken into short segments usually improve audience attention and retention, and more can be interjected through a discussion.
Depending on the audience participation, we could do something like a zoom meeting, or even join forces with mentoring mondays, if it is of any benefit.
We can figure out the format as we go.

By the way, I already polled a number of people in that silly facebook group regarding topics people would like to either teach or learn. It had a good response, I suggested to about a dozen people to start thinking about how they want to present their topic(s). I would love to see you drop your 2c to $300 in there as well.

Anyhow, to recap, let's start with ethics. Let's discuss (via PM or email or text or whatever is convenient for you how to assemble the initial efforts.)

mpallamary wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:48 am I would like to issue a challenge to the association. I would like for the membership to describe the biggest challenge facing the land surveying profession (notice I did not use the term industry), and then to do something about it.

Reading Comprehension seems to be an area where many land surveyors struggle.

I have no idea how to address this issue. Maybe something like this:

https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A

When you take some time to study management, especially that of people, communication with people is one of more widely discussed topics.

For example, the onus is on the communicator is to ensure that the message is understood.

You are probably laughing that I am talking about simplifying the material, and possibly sidertacking CLSA official hierarchy and chain of command.

CLSA seminars and conferences are great, for the same small group of people who attend, and can afford to pay to go, or the company leaders think they are high enough on the corporate totem pole to pay for them.

We are not bringing the information to the audience that needs it.

How many people frequent this forum? How many people attend CLSA meetings?

Here is an example, couple of years ago there was a wonderful seminar on mapping in OC put together with joint efforts of our County, CLSA and several other leaders. I loved the seminar. There was of course cost involved and taking two paid days off of work to attend.

At one point, one of the presenters concluded that the people in the seminar are not those who really need the exposure to the material.

How will another CLSA seminar, this time on ethics, going to reach people who need the material, and not only need to hear it, but a platform where they feel comfortable enough to discuss details of what they are or aren't understanding?

Where I work right now, we have a mentorship program, where people are paired up based on interests. Company provided general guidance material (as far as structure, growth measuring methodology, few accountability techniques etc.) Mentor and mentee meet once a month for an hour, in most examples. There is a significant amount of interest.
What is really great is seeing how over this period the hierarchical barriers of, OMG, the boss or the higerup is judging me melt away, and open up a path for interest and flow of information which is usually very stilfled. I have both, mentor and mentees.

Most mentees were very formal and careful first few months, trying to impress and accommodate the higerups. Both, mentors and mentees received structured written guidance from, let's call it 'the experts outside of technical disciplines'.
As a mentor, one of your tasks is to put mentee at ease that you are here for them, to lend your expertise, without over the top judgement. Establish some of the rapport first, then convey the message.

CLSA doesn't have enough of a relationship with people it is meant to represent to reach the masses who need the info.

Look in here, how many members are in this easily accessible resource (the forum) reading what you are saying. There are 3 or 4 people actively participating. Few more when there's a controversy.

David Kendall, your last post, good example of apathy. On the other hand, also a bit of unwillingness to open up and hear more than what you decided is worthy of hearing. This is why you have no idea how to address things.

I know we want to tackle ethics, but there are simpler more base mechanisms at play. I would reccomend more basic review of human psyche for additional clues.

Here's a question of ethics near and dear to my heart.
Abuse of power in mentor mentee relationships when a mentor is a male and a mentee is a female. Usually it results in a female having to distance herself from the situation, and take the 'high road" of keeping quiet. Unfortunately, this results in a loss of certifiable years of experience which is necessary for licensure.

I've been afraid to even mention this issue fir 30 years. I just dont care any more. Especially now that I have been able to connect with more females in thi industry and have learned that my experience is very common.

Another ethical issue I see 'in the ranks', union and companies employing and accepting people who are willing to heckle a female in the CLSA meeting, in the middle of her presenting material regarding geodhetic efforts. Content of heckling was about how women don't belong in surveying.

Part of unethical behaviors is that the leadership hardly beats an eyelash when this happens. Boys will be boys... we need them to do the hard work.

Most of you dont give female a chance unless she walks talks and behaves as a man, and when she does, then those same people resent that she is not being nice and agreeable.

About a year ago in a CLSA meeting I asked about volunteering opportunities for our large segment of non licensed people (especially those with 10 or more years of experience and aren't complete newbies). The sum of the answer was, oh, yes like the old days we had girls stuffing the envelopes for our newsletter. Yes, I used to 'one of those girls' 1987 to about 1995... till I got tired of the atmosphere.
I expect I should be a good girl and not elaborate on the atmosphere. After all, those who take on the establishment tend to be ousted, and I have 15 years to go before I can think of retirement.

It took a formation of a 'womans surveyor group' to learn that this is common across the country.

You want more people and more educated people in surveying, and you are ignoring half the population (other than a few politically correct platitudes, which have to be hung on the public facing facade).

I know this is considered a "womans issue", but really it is not. It is an issue of too many men crossing boundaries.

Thank you to many other wonderful surveyors, engineers, superintendents and other colleagues whom I met along the way and didn't have to distance myself from them, because they treat you like they would any other professional, without incessant unwanted advances, or stereotyping.

I would like to see this get back on track for the general intent of helping our profession with ways to solve the issue at hand?
I also agree with the first issue above, in that we need to do something about the encroachment of "others" in the practice of Land Surveying. I saw it happen first with advent of GPS usage by contractors (and continues to this day). As time went on, others have encroached into our territory in G.I.S., internal measurement for "Condo Plans" and Drones. Make no mistake about it, much of this comes down to money, but nevertheless is illegal according to the laws. We, as a profession, are a small group. This has effected our ability in the past to make changes in many ways. Creating and/or changing laws which helps our profession is one hurdle, policing the laws is another. I also have seen how our "minority" has driven drafting and other software companies which produce products better serving other "majority" factors than ours. Again, it all comes down to money.
With that, our "minority" needs to stick together to work with progressive changes for our future?

CBarrett wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:00 am David Kendall, your last post, good example of apathy. On the other hand, also a bit of unwillingness to open up and hear more than what you decided is worthy of hearing. This is why you have no idea how to address things.

Withdrawing in disgust is not the same as apathy
-oblique strategies

From the thread on the purpose of CLSA I wrote:

"General thoughts on improving the profession that CLSA could be involved with:

1.) Mandatory Professional Development (Continuing Education),
2.) A more extensive "Code of Conduct" than Board Rule 476,
3.) After a certain number of years (10?) require a test to maintain your license,
4.) A clear definition of professional ethics for LSs,
5.) Clear definitions of Negligence and Incompetence,
6.) Establish an outreach program for Grade School students, and
7.) Encourage the Board of Registration to take more decisive disciplinary actions.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head on a Saturday morning.

2 cents"

IMO, these represent the challenges to our profession and provide specific courses of actions.

As far as our professional ethics are concerned I think intiating/continuing discussions with BPELSG on rewriting Board Rule 476 is a good place to start.

As always I have found that when there is professional disagreement between people it ALWAYS comes down to different understandings of a term or terms being discussed and once an understanding of what those terms mean the differences go away.

In the case of ethics ("Code of Conduct"?) a clear agreed upon definition would help push the discussion on ethics.

It looks like Mike and I are in agreement that BPELSG should ramp up there enforcement activities even though they are doing a good job at present with their resources.

Possibly CLSA could provide support.

2 cents


Happy New Year, all, be happy, prosperous, and safe.
TT, PLS

These are all great Mr. Taylor. I support every single one.

If anyone wants to help out the enforcement efforts, you can apply to be a technical expert to review cases here: https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/licensees/expertswanted.shtml

"To those humans in whom I have faith...."
Nice share Mr. Kendall, mentoring at its best.

To the unreachable.

David Kendall wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:35 pm

CBarrett wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:00 am David Kendall, your last post, good example of apathy. On the other hand, also a bit of unwillingness to open up and hear more than what you decided is worthy of hearing. This is why you have no idea how to address things.

Withdrawing in disgust is not the same as apathy
-oblique strategies

Negative judgements are easy.

Improvements in face of adversity are hard.

Did you know that one of the most result producing questions, in recent changes in the way employment applicants are vetted, is how have you overcome adversities.

Here is a bit of reading regsrding feelings of disguist. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.paulek ... sgust/amp/

This is a great discussion. Please forgive my absence. I have tested positive for COVID and am not doing well at this time. Please do not interpret my absence as apathy. Please be safe.

mpallamary wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:14 amI have tested positive for COVID and am not doing well at this time. Please do not interpret my absence as apathy.

I am very sad to hear this! I understand that you have had a tough run lately regarding health. Please rest easy Mr Pallamary, you have shown us all that you have transcended apathy. I look forward to hearing from you again soon....