California Surveyors Forums

I am disappointed with CLSA.

I write this report because, to a greater or lesser degree, these issues likely exist in every Chapter meeting. This does not mean that everything about CLSA is bad. Far from it. There are so many good things that CLSA has done. I am a 43-year member of CLSA. My first boss, the man who asked me to come down to his office one morning, which started my surveying career, was Robert Hilliard. He was a member of CLSA (LS 3976) and attended the meetings held in the Central Coast. I worked for Ben Maddalena, Terry Orton and then Tom Mastin, one of my mentors and to me one of the most respected Surveyors in California. Although he does not post on this forum, he is the leading surveying instructor at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and a long-time business owner.

I have been to Mike Pallamary's seminar and thoroughly enjoyed it. One outstanding highlight of my career was to listen to the beloved Roy Minnick, who with his accent from I don’t know where, spoke fondly of the State Lands Commission with which he was associated for a time. He introduced to me the most important statute, and I believe, the only statute at the time other than the LS Act, that directly references surveying and is the foundation to boundary surveying here in California. Walt Robillard, a noted lecturer, and dynamic at that, was fascinating and informative.
I attended a full day conference run by Jeffrey Lucas, the writer of The Pincushion effect. While I do not agree with all the principles in his book as pertaining to California, the discussion stretched my brain.Finally, I want to mention Dr. Fareed Nader of Fresno. When you heard him speak, you got to know that he had a love for the people he taught and the profession he enjoyed. He was a gifted speaker and included many humorous stories and anecdotes to help us remember his main points.

CLSA provides a forum such as this one to meet other surveyors, hear their expressions and respond. I will continue to post on this forum but I will do so through my good friend Eric Ackerman (Gromatici). Other benefits are that CLSA is a watchdog for surveyors. They publish California Surveyor magazine and provide a handy (although expensive) way to get the Subdivision Map Act, LS Act, etc.

Now for the bad news. I will be withdrawing my membership with CLSA. It’s true that I have not attended many local chapter meetings and I know I am judging the organization by those meetings. But this is my story. I recently attended a CLSA meeting. This was the second one I attended in 13 years. I had been a sporadic attender in another chapter. The meeting had a structure at first, then turned informal later. People spoke when they felt inclined to. When we were all conversing during the meeting I was answered with the phrase "Well before we go down a rabbit hole..." This was, I believe, the Secretary of the chapter. It seemed he was saying "That information is of little value and off topic" I acknowledge that I may have been talking too much.

I attended my third meeting with this chapter because I had been invited to speak there. My license is 5571 and my company specializes in boundary surveys. The subject was the unlicensed practicing of surveying by architects and others who use that data to prepare their site plans for submittal as construction documents. In the second or third minute of my talk, a long-time member of the group interrupted me and began speaking. It was either a question or a comment. I was shocked. I have given well over 150 public talks. At some of these there was an attendance of about 5000 people (Selland Arena Fresno, Bakersfield Convention Center). I have also given many shorter talks at local gatherings and have instructed LS Review Classes at CLSA meetings and other places. I have never been interrupted during a talk before.

I endeavor to speak the truth and understand the truth so I can convey it correctly to others. I may not be the most colorful speaker but I try to get my facts straight. I have been a member of a speaking school for 48 years. It’s a school that never graduates its students. They just keep getting better at public speaking and teaching.

Back to the meeting. My discussion was based on CBC 107.2.6. I have never seen this mentioned in any seminar, surveying book, the California Surveyor or any other place when discussing surveying. I came across this on my own while working with an organization that is one of the largest construction organizations in the world and which erects and maintains buildings in virtually every country in the world. I work sometimes for that organization here in California.

After my talk. but before the next talk (there were two speakers) one person in the audience decided to start a 20 minute non-stop verbal assault of my information and the LSACTS White Paper. He is a licensed surveyor and added that he had been a business owner since 1994. The White Paper was the subject of the second speaker. This individual spoke multiple times in the meeting and in similar fashion. I could not help myself but I had to speak up. I was visibly and inwardly upset. I questioned the process - who is in charge of this meeting? Why is this person going on and on, contradicting me and himself, speaking way off topic, trying to cover himself by misleading statements? The Secretary interrupted me and said that it was the Chairman's first time doing it. I apologized to the group as I was not aware of that fact.

After that I had to leave the meeting but I actually felt relieved to do so. I later wrote an email to the first-time chairman to let him know I appreciated his effort but the problem was that the meeting lacked structure and he had not received much training. There are certain ethical standards that makes a person feel welcome, appreciated and respected as an individual. I hope those principles can be emphasized so that embarrassing and damaging events like the one I experienced are minimized.

From a disappointed veteran.

Kwilson:

As the Orange County Membership Chair, I would ask that you reconsider. It reads as though you have a chapter problem, not a CLSA problem. Did you read the latest CalSurveyor? The publication alone is worth the price of admission. You should have recently received the CLSA webinar calendar - each webinar is free to members and can accommodate any schedule by viewing the webinar at a later date.

Lastly, as a 5500 series license you have experience and the next generation could benefit from that experience - maybe not your particular chapter. Some of that experience has to have resonated into grit. Buy yourself a popular 70s t-shirt "the last great act of defiance" with the mouse and eagle and send your membership dues to Sacramento. There was a reason you hung around nearly 50 years - the reason still exists. In my opinion, CLSA is poised to do some their best work and certainly benefits from the elder statesman in the industry.

If you feel the need for chapter membership, please contact me. The Orange County chapter has about 15% of the membership outside of the county.

DWoolley

Were the offenders wine or beer drinkers?

Years ago I was involved with the LS Exam prep program that the late Vance Breshears used to run out of the old CALTRANS office in Old Town San Diego. Many of the students would have dinner in the Mexican restaurant across the street before class started. A few would have a margarita or two. I remember one particular class where one nice enough, but vocal old guy kept interrupting and going on and on about how unfair the LS exam was. Finally after one outburst, Vance said " that's it. We are going to take a 20 minute break". He took the offender out and read him the riot act. When we came back, you could tell the offender was really trying hard to keep quit, and was having a hard time doing so.

Someone has to set the ground rules. A professional gathering should be just that. Save the hard drinking until after the meeting in the bar.

I am truly sorry you experienced such disrespect.

Dear Mr. Wilson,

Your comments struck a deep chord with me. Please do not be discouraged. You are making a difference. You cannot let your recent experience discourage you.

The individuals who displayed the disrespect you mentioned are not worth your time or energy. I believe you are experiencing a hangover from COVID. The lack of social interaction has compromised their ability to interact with others. One merely needs to look at the national discourse to appreciate this phenomenon. I am confident these boorish individuals have never made any worthwhile contributions to the advancement of the profession. You have. You have always offered your opinion and weighed in on issues of importance to the surveying profession. Please continue being a positive force. We need you.

With regards to interacting with others, I have never spoken in malice. I respect other’s opinions even though I may disagree with them and, I have learned to disregard the banal comments of neo-neanderthals. For the most part, they are mostly interested in hearing themselves utter banal comments.

Notwithstanding the rudeness you encountered, the mere fact that they have influenced you is disheartening, and I am sorry. We have become an ill society and we must fix it. We need to stand together and set an example for others. Please take some time to reflect upon what happened. We need more people like you, people who raise important topics and advance a civil dialogue. You are a good person and many recognize that.

Illegitimi non carborundum

(Yeah, I’m going to make you look this one up.)

Humorist Will Rogers once commented that he never learned anything from someone that agreed with him.

Don't quit. When good people leave, the bad apples win. Don't give them the luxury.
Things go back and forth, they get better. You'll get through it.

Thank you interested parties who responded. Dave you are like the guru of posting threads and the 10 minute surveyor is an awesome idea. That's the kind of content CLSA should be interested in supporting. I have an idea called Surveyor Stories. I think I might start that off by posting them on this website. So maybe you guys are right. I guess I will need to send in my $200 each year to keep the privilege.

I appreciate Steve's point about a little too much of the bubbly. That did not seem to be the problem here. Actually only one guy derailed the train. But the system allowed him to do so. Perhaps this is only on a local level. I already received two email apologies from two surveyors who had nothing to do with the situation. They apologized for the system. I thought that was noble of them.

Mike, your are like the king of information on this post and the author of many great ideas. Yes covid fatigue is a thing. I find people are now much more willing to talk to strangers to discuss topics of the day. Let's keep that going.

And Dharri - yes that's a great line and I will use it. Also Gordon Wattles when he says something about the contrary. I can't remember the exact line. But there is a difference between watering a seed and a flood that washes the topsoil away. The key points of the discussion were washed away by the flood of misinformation.

Speaking of which have you all noticed on the main websites how much Fake News there is? One front page headline on my home page said "Possible Speculation about Kevin Durant Joining the Warriors". First how far from the truth is speculation? And how much further would be Possible Speculation?? NBA fans I have news for you. I don't think the Warriors are going to mess up the dynasty any time soon.

And CBarrett a newer poster (at least for me) thank you for the encouragement. I have been working on dozens of practical papers, videos, etc. to help our new surveyors as they come up. All of it will be provided free of charge to anyone who wants it. We have extensive drafting videos and powerpoints and little discussions on every day subjects. Like actually how to construction stake. Definitions of the words Hub, Lath, Stake which to many are confusing. How to put wood, nails, paint, marks in the ground or asphalt. Stuff it takes a long time to learn if you don't do that every day.

No am not giving up but hopefully this discussion creates a better atmosphere in the surveying community which will serve to attract more to our meetings rather than what it is at our local chapter. The same 4 guys for the last 13 years and a few other dudes.

You just made my day! Thanks! I promised my wife I was going to stop kicking the dog!