California Surveyors Forums

As with many aspects of my life, I may have fallen behind the times regarding the signature/seal requirements of digital deliverables.

20 or so years ago I adopted the practice of one of my engineering clients by providing a signed and sealed paper copy along with a DWG featuring a seal with the words "SIGNED COPY ON FILE" splashed across it. 10 or so years ago I replaced the paper copy with a digitally-signed PDF. A recent client didn't like the altered seal and asked me to provide a DWG with an unadulterated one. I thought I'd query the hive mind on the matter, thus my question:

How do you handle this, particularly with regard to drawings that will be incorporated into another firm's plan set?

I may or may not change my ways, but I figured it'd be a good idea to see where the rest of the profession is on the matter.

Thanks!

What do they want to see as your seal? A wet ink-stamped print?

We sign and seal PDF documents all the time, with a graphic image of the seal, and a graphic image of a signature.
However, recorder's office will have the final word. There are places that want wet signatures and no blue ink. If that's required, we accommodate them. Title companies will sometimes require things a certain way, from their experience with whatever recorders office the document is going to.

What do they want to see as your seal? A wet ink-stamped print?

As it turns out, all they wanted was for the seal to appear on all sheets instead of just Sheet 1. This is a topo survey that'll be incorporated into a construction plan set, and I assume they'll be using the signed PDFs for that, so I added the signature/seal to all sheets.

But I'm still curious how others address the signature/seal requirements for DWGs that are provided to a client or other end-user. I recall that there are/were some sort of CAD add-ons that accommodated digital signatures, but I haven't kept up with that. (For all I know, AutoCAD and/or C3D have that built in, but I don't use Autodesk products.)

Use of electronic seals is covered under Board Rule 411(e) & (g)(2), and in PLS Act §8761(d)

8761(d): If the land surveying document has multiple pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise required by law.

Y'all only have to sign the first sheet, but you CAN sign every sheet multiple times, if you want.

Electronic signatures is on an agency by agency basis...except for RS, PM & FM. I create a DocuSign version from the PDF file of the survey plats we hand over to the engineers in our office.

Use of electronic seals is covered under Board Rule 411(e) & (g)(2), and in PLS Act §8761(d)

Unless I missed something, §8761 is silent on the matter of digital signatures. §411(e) says only that "[t]he signature may be applied to the documents electronically." Taking into account §411(f), which bars the use of signature decals or rubber stamps, it seems to me that a facsimile of a wet signature (a digitized signature) isn't allowed. That brings me back to the substance of my original question: are you applying a digital signature (as opposed to a digitized signature) to the DWGs that you release to clients?

Jim,

We provide a PDF using images of each persons signature and a CAD block for the stamp. So to answer your question: a digitized copy of our actual signature.

We used to print hard copies, sign and stamp them and then scan those, but the quality is never as good as a "print" straight to PDF. With the new PDF editing programs like Bluebeam a "printed" PDF document is much easier to review, edit query etc. We try to keep some sort of record that shows the license involved had personally added the signature, or directed someone else to do it, but like all SOPs, it likely doesn't have a 100% adherence...

Addressing the question of whether or not a digitized signature on a map is a "rubber stamp" in todays post covid world is a question that I think will be addressed sooner or later, and until that time we have decided to read it narrowly and consider "rubber stamp" to be exactly that, a physical thing that is made of rubber :)

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

If you are looking to actually digitally sign an autocad file, there is a process where you can attach a digital signature when you do a save-as, and you have to have a digital ID defined on your computer.
This is roughly what the process looks like: we don't do digitally signed files as a matter of a policy, so I can't step you through the entire process.
If someone wants CAD files we send them as a courtesy, along with a stamped, signed (images, as if it is a scan) PDF, and if they insist we will do a digitally signed PDF, but that doesn't happen very often. For now, for us CAD files are considered editable by-product, so they come 'as-is, use at your own risk'

Do you know what it is that your client needs to do with the drawings, in order to want a digital signature? I can't say we have encountered this request. Couple of times that I did, it sounded like the requestor was just repeating what someone else told them, and didn't really understand the nuances.

Edit: I forgot to mention, when there is an original that is meant to be a final product, as opposed to a draft copy, we end up sending them a wet signed paper copy along with PDF's. Most clients protest getting the paper copy, ignore them and rely on the PDFs - until they need to go and record something (like a legal description).

Do you know what it is that your client needs to do with the drawings, in order to want a digital signature?

It's not a client request, it's me wanting to comply with the statute. For my engineering and architect clients, the PDF is just window dressing -- the DWG is what they really want. When the DWG is the primary professional work product, it seems to me that the intent of the law is to have it authenticatable by digital signature (which would, as a byproduct, serve as protection for the professional against claims resulting from post-delivery modifications).

I figured I was probably being slow to adopt modern techniques, but so far that doesn't appear to be the case.

I send the dwg with linework only to facilitate design work and I remove the paper layout (including the stamp) and the important proprietary information like random control points. The pdf can be wet signed and scanned or I frequently use the acrobat certificate function that restricts editing.

Certifying a dwg seems like a risky venture. The lines can always be copied and altered and I don’t want my seal on that. They can put my certified pdf into their plan set as needed, beyond that is not my problem.

I don’t believe the laws are specific on this and it seems like a professional courtesy to supply cad files, not a requirement.

I try to get my clients what they need but I don’t provide drawings that can be edited with a stamp. I can’t imagine any reason to do that or why they would need it

My Seal and Signature are Xrefs and always detached before sending any Acad.dwg.

All my clients build their Plan Sets from Adobe.pdfs, which do have my Seal and Signature.