California Surveyors Forums

Deeds recorded for decades without plats. In fact, most metes and bounds descriptions do not have plats in my local jurisdictions. The plats appears to have evolved in the practice over the last 40 years.

Last week I found a 2001 document that conveyed an easement without a written description, plat only. One issue, there are no qualifying terms on the plats i.e. "to", "along", "parallel with" etc. In my mind, the legal description for a deed must be in written form, the plat is optional.

Has anyone else found documents without written legal descriptions conveying easements? Is conveying an easement, plat only, without a written legal description acceptable?

DWoolley

Yes, mostly done my non-surveyors for "easement agreements" when they don't want to bother with legal descriptions, and others, often buried in CCN'R's.

I can't say that I have seen a particular increase in these practices. Thankfully, a few public agencies have stopped doing this.

Are you aware of any land surveyors that prepare these types of documents and believe it to be acceptable practice?

DWoolley

Same as Connie's experience for me. I have seen those mainly as hand drawn lines on parcel maps or AP maps included as part of easement agreements.

If all the calls and information otherwise required in a proper legal description are present, IE it is place-able on the ground with no ambiguity, I would call it acceptable practice. If I had to choose between an equally competent legal description vs a graphic I would prolly choose graphic? Same idea as why monuments hold over legal descriptions. The picture will be understood by the grantor and grantee far better than a legal description would be.

Of course its best to have both, redundancy is better than ambiguity :)

Question for you Dave: If its ok for a lot and block description, why not an easement?

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

Mike Mueller wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:16 am ...
Question for you Dave: If its ok for a lot and block description, why not an easement?

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

A lot and block description is referring to a filed map - presumably based on a ground survey - prepared by a land surveyor.

In my recent realization of an alternate land surveying universe - a universe in which land surveyors willingly forego written legal descriptions - my hubris has been made obvious to me. I inappropriately scoffed at land surveyors that believed topography and construction staking were sustainable, dare I say, protected practices. I was incorrect in thinking legal descriptions were a land surveyor's safe hold. Alas, I believe most anyone can prepare a closed figure plat - ergo, writing easements in this manner are no more protected than the balance of 8726. Contractors have good CAD skills with coordinate geometry knowledge, surely they can plat easements. There are unlicensed legal description factories that I held in contempt - it appears they were early money on the future.

Oddly, I see great humor in my having misjudged the "protected practice" of writing legal descriptions. Plat away John Q., godspeed to you. We, the land surveying community, will stop once every bridge behind us has burned and our backs are to the sea.

Land surveying, nevermore, nevermore (Poe's Raven, mourning loss).

DWoolley

Many of my land surveying days are spent reviewing documents that include legal descriptions and plats.

I am ever so tempted to request a land surveyor to abandon the written description and submit a plat only for a vacation document or something similar. Based on recent conversations, something unimaginable a week ago, I suspect I would have no resistance.

DWoolley

Dave,

I think you might be mistaking a thought experiment for endorsement, or perhaps I am too Swiftian in my judgement ;)
Discussions about legal requirements vs minimum level vs acceptable vs correct vs typical vs ideal are useful for understanding principles and thresholds. Especially in the context of reviewing work I would expect you know that better than myself that there is a difference to all those levels.

Once a Deed with only an exhibit is recorded, what is the difference between it and a Parcel Map? There are many record data only PMs so a "survey on the ground" point is moot.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

Mikey:

I didn't see it as an endorsement. I enjoy getting the perspectives.

Perhaps my dog-eared copy of Wattles was nothing more than dogma. It took 9,600 licensees to crack the code, words have no place in legal descriptions, a plat is sufficient. Tough for me to wrap my mind around it, but I also believed free speech was inalienable. I'll come around.

DWoolley

DWoolley wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:53 am Are you aware of any land surveyors that prepare these types of documents and believe it to be acceptable practice?

Mostly engineers and developers, and some utility companies drawing stick figures over photocopy of a plan. I'd say maybe 10% of easements end up that way, or fewer. I haven't done a massive number of ALTAs in last 4 years, where you encounter them more often.

DWoolley wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:53 am Perhaps my dog-eared copy of Wattles was nothing more than dogma. It took 9,600 licensees to crack the code, words have no place in legal descriptions, a plat is sufficient. Tough for me to wrap my mind around it, but I also believed free speech was inalienable. I'll come around.

There are systems in existence in other countries, more often with cadastral systems which don't use legal descriptions at all, and it is all done by plats. Only surveyor is allowed to prepare those plats. It didn't cause dilution of the profession. But, If I am to judge with how things are done in my old country, over there you can't come even close to professional competence without a 4 year degree, so you don't quite have masses of people having grown entitled to become a Geodetic Engineer (that's what we are called over there) by only doing a small portion of surveying, and culture of professionalism is much more developed. You don't get very many people arriving into the professional rank with the "trade" mindset or poor understanding of professional ethics and responsibilities etc.

Many do have a second tear, the technician level, which, without additional education and tests can not 'ripen' into a full Geodetic Engineer. People Can make a career out of being a geodetic technician, but never get the same rights or ability to practice independently as a Geodetic Engineer. I see many of our licensees fitting more closely into a Geodetic technician category, if I am to judge behaviors and things we struggle in the US, than I see those who are likely to fit into Geodetic Engineer category.

Dilution of professional brand in the US has started long time ago, when skilled labor was needed to support economic and Industrial expansion of the country.... easily as far back as 1700's. Now, this method of running a business has become the norm, and we are not producing sufficient numbers of highly skilled people. It is part of the culture now.

I've seen older roads sketched out by the parties and attached to easement deeds with no legal descriptions. Say in the 1960s and 1970s..... Very troublesome based on my experiences.... I don't recall anything modern not having a legal description.

good sketch or description
vs
crappy sketch or description

I fail to see what the problem is, other it's not what you are accustomed to.

personally I have done Both "back in the day" because sometimes one was clearly better or easier than the other.
if it works it works.

===
"Does it clearly pass title? Can you survey it? Then it's just fine" or something like that
Bob Curtis 1980+/-

Peter Ehlert wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:43 am ...
I fail to see what the problem is, other it's not what you are accustomed to.
...

It is certainly not something I am accustomed to seeing. It is a unicorn for me outside of the CC&Rs or sketches on AP maps as mentioned by others - seldom created by land surveyors.

I can see the potential for a deficit in qualifying language.

It strikes me as odd nobody decided to convey with plats on the regular for the last 150 years in the jurisdictions I work in or that Wattles (and others) dedicated an entire book on the topic when "draw a picture" would have sufficed. I think back to these long, tedious strip descriptions we have written and checked over the last 35 years, all for nothing?

I will have do some research. Without a citation, my first thought is there is/was a legal requirement for written legal descriptions in conveyances. I have doubted we suddenly developed a new idea in the second oddest profession.

Actually a bit exciting to prospectively think I have been doing something less than correct my entire career. I always thought that was the other guy.

Thanks,

DWoolley

Interesting thread . . .

Let's say you're buying a surveying business . . . don't you "describe" what you are buying?

You're leasing property . . . doesn't a "lease agreement" . . . with copious legal "words" - describe exactly one is leasing?

Years ago attorneys wrote descriptions (hopefully, but not always - based upon a survey) with flowery cursive writings and unambiguous legal terms.

As Peter mentioned: of the wise words (and common sense) of our late friend Bob Curtis . . . is it retraceable?

Great thread!

We haven't come up with a new idea, Lot in a tract description which is widely acceptable and recognized as a valid description defers to a map to show everything else needed to locate the property.

We are only talking about recording smaller types of maps in OR's as opposed to large types of maps in books of maps.

Parcel 2 of Parcel Map 87-123 filed in book 123 page 45 is just as recognizable, permanent and identifiable as
Strip 7 of an easement recorded .... 87-0456789 O.R. and if that easement had a sketch, and the actual legal description page was gone, or completely illegible, with a sufficiently detailed sketch, the easement would still exist and be locatable.

Ofcourse, grant of an easement is not a subdivision, we are focusing on the ability to identify a piece of property based on documentation, verbal or nonverbal.

Also, easements fully shown on subdivision maps are created without the benefit of a legal description, so that precedent already exists, you can create easements by graphic depiction only. If properly annotated (technically correct), their locatability is not compromised.


We then resort to a Lot in a Tract, or Parcel 1 of such and such parcel map to reference this property in a written conveyance, which has no room for a full map, plus it needs to sit inside a sentence that contains operative words of conveyance. I Jessica Rabbit convey Parcel 1 of parcel map .... to Wiley E. Coyote. Subject + Verb + Direct Object + Prepositional Phrase. Every other detail of this Parcel 1 is described via the plat.

I could also say I Wiley E. Coyote convey that certain land described in a document recorded as Instrument No. 1234546789 of O.R. to Donald Duck.

Then you read Instrument No. 1234546789 of O.R and find out that it reads: Jessica Rabbit convey Parcel 1 of parcel map .... to Wiley E. Coyote.

Then you pull up the parcel map, in order to be able to locate it on the ground.

To have a conveyance, we have to put it in a sentence format, subject (I [name]), verb (convey), object (parcel 1 of parcel map...), operative object (to Wiley E. Coyote). and Wiley E. Coyote accepts. Conveyance done (recording optional in california).

Object is clearly identifiable as a mapped parcel, no metes and bounds required.

If it's easy enough to show all the qualifying and controlling elements, i.e. 8 1/2" x 11" provides sufficent space for an unambiguous graphic, I say a picture is worth a thousand words. It depends on the situation; some this will work for, some it will not.

I've written many, many easement descriptions that are simply "Parcel A as shown on Book xx of Surveys, Page xxx". Of course, that Record of Survey shows all the monuments tied to arrive at the surrounding boundaries, methodology, all easement courses tied to existing boundaries, monuments set to perpetuate the new easements, etc. In those cases, since a Record of Survey was likely being done anyways, the idea of the plat only didn't occur to me. I'm searching my memory trying to think of a simpler case where no RS was involved and the plat may have sufficed to cover everything I'd say in a description. Nothing immediately comes to mind, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea.

Dave Ryan,
Arcata

This topic has been an excellent thought experiment for me.  I have always marveled at the number of surveyors that learned to emulate land surveying - they perform land surveying, sometimes for the entirety of a career, with varying understanding or consideration as to the mechanics or basis for a procedure.  One such example is a person the collects RTK/RTN data for over 1 minute and/or rotates the rod 180 degrees thinking it makes for a better solution.   This "procedure" stems from the necessity in conventional surveying redundancy and error canceling that does not apply to RTK/RTN.  It'd be funny if it wasn't actually so prevalent.  It would be ok-ish if such illogical "procedures" were limited to RTK/RTN.  Error of closure and the resultant precision ratio is another classic.

Land surveying, as practiced, for better or worse, is a hodgepodge of informational casacades and the resulting social proof (also partially accounts for the proclivities toward dishonesty).  I discovered this psychological phenomenon at an early age when trying to understand how well meaning land surveyors have propagated half truths and outright fallacies. 

All said, I have been craffing at the thought I was caught up in a land surveying informational casacade writing legal descriptions when a plat was sufficient.  I am still enjoying the thought of it after spending the last 25 years attempting to avoid these known pitfalls. 

As a test, I decided to try to plat my way out of the written word and found it nearly impossible to be clear,  concise and without ambiguity.  I found the direction i.e. clockwise or counterclockwise (written with purpose), avoiding double calls, references to senior lines, flexibility in mathematical figures with purpose i.e. to, along,  parallel etc nearly impossible to maintain or achieve.   Most any attempt to substitute a plat for a written legal description is likely to end up being donk surveying.  In it's simplest form, it is much more efficient to write "the west 100.00 feet..." than to plat it. Additionally, a legitimate argument to prorate the width could be lodged.

In the end,  I believe I have realized there is a reason we cannot use plats without a written description effectively.  I believe it is appropriate to say any practitioner - encountering a plat only - to pause and seriously consider the source and recognize the inherent weakness in location.

Wattles did not mislead the entire profession of law and land surveying for the last 80 years - something I was seriously pondering.  On the contrary,  Wattles understood the necessity for the use of precise words in contractual documents. 

Lastly, I believe research will reveal there is a legal requirement for the written word. When I find it, I will post it here.

Anyone have any similar or contrary thoughts? 

DWoolley

When a bank cashes a check . . . the ONLY portion that will be debited from the account - is the "written" words. NOT the written numeric value in the upper right hand corner of the check.

I'm in your camp . . . written with a plat as back up.

Besides . . . what better way to convey "intent" than words?

In my opinion, using a plat only as a legal description is still a “legal description” of real property and a “new” description of real property whether by words, plat or both is a function of land surveying. So we land surveyors can choose the best method to use in each situation. Unlicensed persons cannot write,draw or create a new legal description. If they do they should be asked politely to discontinue the practice and if they don’t file a complaint.

So I decided to take the "new-age" route of asking ChatGPT the following:

"what is a legal description for land surveying?" and it came up with the following:

In land surveying, a legal description is a detailed and precise written explanation of the boundaries and location of a specific parcel of land. It is used to accurately identify and define a piece of property in legal documents, such as deeds, contracts, or land records. Legal descriptions are typically required for real estate transactions, property conveyance, boundary disputes, and other legal purposes.

There are several common types of legal descriptions used in land surveying:

Metes and Bounds: This method describes the boundaries of a property by specifying a series of measurements (metes) and directions (bounds). It often starts at a specific reference point and follows the perimeter of the land, using angles and distances.

Rectangular Survey System: Also known as the Public Land Survey System (PLSS), this method is commonly used in the United States. It divides land into townships, ranges, and sections based on a grid system. Each section is described by its location within the grid, such as Township X, Range Y, Section Z.

Lot and Block: This method is frequently used in urban areas and subdivided developments. It identifies a parcel of land by referencing a recorded plat or map. The description includes the lot number, block number, and sometimes subdivision name.

Monument-based Descriptions: In this type of legal description, specific physical markers or monuments, such as trees, stakes, or landmarks, are used to define the boundaries of the property. The description includes the location and characteristics of these monuments.

It's important to note that legal descriptions should be prepared by a licensed surveyor or a qualified professional to ensure accuracy and compliance with applicable laws and regulations. The specific format and content of a legal description may vary depending on the jurisdiction and local requirements.

So then I went a step further and asked "can I write a legal description with only a plat?" and it gave me the following:

While a plat can provide valuable information about a property, it is typically not sufficient on its own to create a complete legal description. A plat is a map or plan that shows the boundaries, dimensions, and layout of a subdivision or parcel of land, but it may lack the precise metes and bounds or other specific measurements required for a legal description.

A legal description should accurately and unambiguously define the boundaries of a property, providing a clear and detailed explanation that can be used in legal documents. It usually includes information about distances, angles, monuments, or other landmarks that establish the property's boundaries.

However, a plat can be used as a reference or starting point for creating a legal description. A licensed surveyor can examine the plat and conduct a survey to obtain the necessary measurements and details to formulate a proper legal description. The surveyor will take into account the physical features, boundary markers, and other relevant information to ensure accuracy.

To ensure compliance with local laws and regulations, and to guarantee the legal validity of the description, it is advisable to consult a licensed surveyor or a qualified professional in your jurisdiction. They can assist you in creating an accurate and legally acceptable description based on the plat and any additional survey data that may be required.

Lastly I asked "Why is a legal description in written words?" and got the following:

A legal description is typically expressed in written words for several reasons:

Clarity and Precision: Written words allow for clear and precise communication of the boundaries and characteristics of a property. They provide a detailed and unambiguous description that can be easily understood and interpreted by interested parties, including landowners, surveyors, attorneys, and courts.

Permanent Record: Written descriptions serve as a permanent record that can be referenced and relied upon for future legal purposes. Unlike visual representations or oral descriptions, written words can be preserved in legal documents, such as deeds or land records, ensuring a consistent and reliable reference for the property's boundaries over time.

Legal Formality: Written descriptions have long been recognized as a standard requirement in legal transactions and documents. They provide a formal and structured approach to defining property boundaries, helping to establish legal rights and responsibilities related to land ownership.

Legal Interpretation: Written descriptions provide a basis for legal interpretation and dispute resolution. In case of boundary disputes or other conflicts, a written description can be analyzed and interpreted by professionals, such as surveyors or judges, who can objectively assess the language and intent of the description.

Consistency and Standardization: Written descriptions help maintain consistency and standardization in land transactions and legal proceedings. By adhering to specific formats and language conventions, they ensure that descriptions are uniformly understood and applied within a particular jurisdiction.

While visual representations, such as plats or maps, can be helpful supplements to written descriptions, they are not always sufficient on their own. Written words provide a level of detail, precision, and legal formality necessary for accurately defining property boundaries and ensuring the enforceability of land-related rights and obligations.

Just food for thought, I am still trying to formulate my opinion on a legal description in Plat form only without any written words.

So I went a few steps further down the rabbit hole and I don't think you can call it a "legal description" when it is only a plat. According to ChatGPT a "description" is defined as

"the act or process of providing a detailed account, explanation, or representation of something, typically in words or language. It involves conveying information about the characteristics, qualities, attributes, or features of a person, object, event, or concept.

A description aims to provide a clear and comprehensive understanding of the subject being described, allowing others to visualize, comprehend, or identify it. Descriptions can be objective, presenting factual information, or subjective, offering personal opinions or interpretations.

In summary, a description involves the use of language to provide a detailed and informative account of a subject, enabling others to understand, visualize, or identify it more effectively."

So then what is the definition of a "legal description"? It is defined as follows:

"A legal description refers to a precise and detailed written explanation of the boundaries and location of a specific piece of land or real property. It is a legally recognized and formal description used in legal documents, such as deeds, contracts, or land records, to accurately identify and define the property.

A legal description serves the purpose of establishing the exact boundaries of a property in a manner that can be understood and interpreted by professionals, such as surveyors, attorneys, and courts. It typically includes specific measurements, distances, angles, directions, reference points, or other relevant information that unambiguously delineate the boundaries of the property.

The legal description is crucial in property transactions, conveyance of ownership, establishing property rights, resolving boundary disputes, and other legal matters related to land. It provides a definitive and permanent record that can be referred to and relied upon in legal proceedings, ensuring clarity, accuracy, and consistency in the identification and description of real property."

Based on the information above and my previous post I don't believe you can even call it a "legal description" without a written summary/explanation.

Something tells me this is a definition debate. Considering there has to be a grant deed, which has words expressing the actual granting of a thing as required by contract law/statue of frauds, the only thing we are discussing is what "as shown on Exhibit A" needs to contain.
1) Words 2) Lines, 3) words and lines.

Clarifying Question:
When we say "plat" we are meaning a collection of lines/circles/arcs etc with some describing words added, simiiar to a RoS? Or is it ONLY lines without any words? I understand "Plat" to also have words in the form of notes and descriptions of points and labels etc.

So the description "the west 100' of Lands of XZY per DN 1234-567889" is just as easy to show on a graphic that has the entirety of the lands of XZY shown, with a hatched area of the west 100' that has the words add "The west 100' of the Lands of XZY per DN 1234-567889". IE it is giving the same words, but placed in the context of the entirety of the lands of which the west 100' feet is a portion. This has more information that will allow an intuitive understanding to everyone that looks at it.

A strip description is even easier since you can call out the POB as whatever is needed, IE POC SE corner of Lands of XZY, have a distance of 25.9 feet along the southerly boundary of said lands, to a point labeled "POB of 50' strip", then show bearings of east line and the bearing of the strip would look like this " N01°30'30"E Parallel with East Line". voila! Controlling element included. Adding some real world features like the existing road, or gates, or public roads would make it even easier to understand and ensure there wasn't a goof that results in a lawsuit in 40 years.

I am tempted to prepare a few graphics to demonstrate my points, but I figured it was an interesting test to see if my words conveyed the idea sufficiently :)

Funny enough, I think the picture form would likely cost more than the words only, so it would be chosen by clients less often.

Regarding ChatGPT in its current form, I understand its knowledge of the world is the average of all online knowledge from a snapshot of the internet, that has been negatively reinforced into only giving politically correct answers. Unless you can jailbreak it and get a DAN form to work (which I havent been able to in a while), I wouldn't expect it to give interesting answers to anything innovative or controversial. https://openaimaster.com/chat-gpt-jailbreak-prompt/

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

PS edited to address AI answers

DWoolley wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:29 am As a test, I decided to try to plat my way out of the written word and found it nearly impossible to be clear,  concise and without ambiguity.  I found the direction i.e. clockwise or counterclockwise (written with purpose), avoiding double calls, references to senior lines, flexibility in mathematical figures with purpose i.e. to, along,  parallel etc nearly impossible to maintain or achieve.   Most any attempt to substitute a plat for a written legal description is likely to end up being donk surveying.  In it's simplest form, it is much more efficient to write "the west 100.00 feet..." than to plat it. Additionally, a legitimate argument to prorate the width could be lodged.

If one is to resort to a plat, the qualifying calls describing intent would have to be clearly delineated on the plat. Using plat would not excuse absence of information.

However, this paragraph also tells me that our mapped product, ie. Record of surveys may be typically information-deficient. Especially when they omit critical information from the deed that was used to retrace a boundary. For example, investigation of jr/sr rights should be explained on an RS, if any exist.

I'm not saying that legals should be done away with, I'm saying that I see cases where the came thing can be solve with just a plat. (provided they are properly done)

Mike Mueller wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:37 am When we say "plat" we are meaning a collection of lines/circles/arcs etc with some describing words added, similar to a RoS? Or is it ONLY lines without any words? I understand "Plat" to also have words in the form of notes and descriptions of points and labels etc.

The only way a plat can replace a legal description is if it contains ALL of the information a legal description does. I am assuming apples and apples comparison. Once we start omitting information, we're no longer comparing apples and apples.
Now whether that is practical or not is a whole different debating points.

Mike Mueller wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:37 am Funny enough, I think the picture form would likely cost more than the words only, so it would be chosen by clients less often.

That's what I'm thinking too.

bryanmundia wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:17 am Based on the information above and my previous post I don't believe you can even call it a "legal description" without a written summary/explanation.

However, a description of Parcel 2 of Parcel map 21-456 filed in P.M.B. 213/456 is a perfectly valid legal description for a, let's say blanket parking easement. The only thing we get from that description is a pointer to a subdivision map. I don't think we are discussing having a plat without any written words, but placing all of the pertinent information on a plat format, instead of having a plat and a description as two separate parts. We already tend to do exhibits with legals, and tend to place most of the qualifying calls on the plats, in addition to the legal. I can see a good number of cases where a plat only would be quite sufficient.