California Surveyors Forums

Wattles: "It has been held by the courts that if the description is SURVEYABLE, it is sufficient as between the parties. A boundary is considered definite and certain when by survey it can be made certain from the deed."

Surveyable is not the same as retraceable right?

Should you always start a legal description (easement or deed) by tying two monuments?

Just because many older deeds in California rarely do this should we repeat this process?

Most deeds I encounter are always: "Beginning at the most westerly corner of the land of John Doe, thence, course and distance...."

Since most legal descriptions never tie to an existing monument, we can rarely accept any monument placed at the corner or point of beginning unless expressly called for in the deed.

Many deeds refer to maps drawn in the late 1800s and early 1900s that do not close and often show no monument set.

How can anything control with the absence of any physical monuments called for?

The only thing we have to go by are our licensed predecessors who replaced with iron those found hubs of unknown origin that could or could have been set by proper survey techniques and practices or even just "put it right there for me will ya?"

Circling back to my original question: Are we really doing the public any good by omitting to call to 2 existing monuments we either found or set during the course of our survey in order for the legal description to be written?

Your question is like asking what is the best diet. Lots of opinions, many of which are valid, some of which are clearly silly, and there is an incomplete set of facts so there is no clearly correct answer.

Read lots, think, discuss with your mentors, discuss with people you think are wrong, read more, think again. Rinse, repeat. You will find an answer that jives with your underlying set of principles and beliefs. If your theory agrees with your principles then you will sleep well and not be too stressed about all the decisions you will have to make with incomplete information.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

Thanks Mike! I agree. Seems more like it's a matter of interpretation. Like Jeff Lucas says, we sell our opinions like the Doctors, Lawyers, and the Clergy.

There is an entire book written to address your questions.

DWoolley

Keep reading in Wattles? or Brown's? or Evidence and Procedures?

Thanks Mr. Woolley.

aidensanchez0812 wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:07 pm ...
Circling back to my original question: Are we really doing the public any good by omitting to call to 2 existing monuments we either found or set during the course of our survey in order for the legal description to be written?

See Wattles "Lines of Title vs. Monuments", section 11.31 to 11.33.

Corners are legal angles points and/or the terminus of boundary lines that defines the limits of rights/ownership. Monuments are set to represent the corners. Not all corners are monumented. A corner will always exists. Not all monuments correctly represent the corner. Typically, original monuments hold over maps and/or math.

When a legal description is written from a monument AND represented as a legal corner and at a later date, the monument is subsequently determined not to represent the corner intended the description written from a monument will have two different locations on the ground - therein lies the rub. For the land surveyor, there is no higher calling for competence or more challenging tasks than that of properly written legal descriptions. Bad legal descriptions are future lawsuits. Even in the absence of a lawsuit, bad legal descriptions are hard to clear from title.

To refer to monuments or to the legal corners will vary by description.

DWoolley

Well said, Dave . . .

However, as Aiden pointed out . . . tying the easement to a couple of monuments would show provenence for the easement description. As Mr. Wooly points out - those monuments may not represent the true corner(s). The easement is "retraceable" when one throws in a couple of passive (on-the-ground) monuments. Toss in True North to your easement as a basis of bearings - and voila you only need one surviving point. Minnick's "LAWS FOR SURVEYORS" mentioned that the County Surveyor's surveys shall be on True north. The sun is one hell of a monument and ya can't get a longer basis of bearings than that smiling globe.

Have a good week all . . . another hot one in north country.

Crazy Phil - Sonoma

Here's the Govt Code regarding True North:

Government Code - GOV
TITLE 3. GOVERNMENT OF COUNTIES [23000 - 33205] ( Title 3 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
DIVISION 2. OFFICERS [24000 - 28085] ( Division 2 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
PART 3. OTHER OFFICERS [26500 - 27773] ( Part 3 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
CHAPTER 11. Surveyor [27550 - 27601] ( Chapter 11 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )

ARTICLE 1. Duties Generally [27550 - 27564] ( Article 1 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )

27563.
In all surveys the courses shall be expressed according to the true meridian, and the variation of the magnetic meridian from the true meridian shall be expressed on the plat with the date of the survey.

(Added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424.)

hellsangle wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:16 am Here's the Govt Code regarding True North:

Government Code - GOV
TITLE 3. GOVERNMENT OF COUNTIES [23000 - 33205] ( Title 3 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
DIVISION 2. OFFICERS [24000 - 28085] ( Division 2 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
PART 3. OTHER OFFICERS [26500 - 27773] ( Part 3 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )
CHAPTER 11. Surveyor [27550 - 27601] ( Chapter 11 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )

ARTICLE 1. Duties Generally [27550 - 27564] ( Article 1 added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424. )

27563.
In all surveys the courses shall be expressed according to the true meridian, and the variation of the magnetic meridian from the true meridian shall be expressed on the plat with the date of the survey.

(Added by Stats. 1947, Ch. 424.)

Phil, I would argue that the language you posted was intended solely for surveys conducted by the County Surveyor since it is Government Code and under Duties of that County Officer. I would be hard pressed to say that all surveys presented to the County Surveyor's Office would need to comply with this because these Government Code sections govern the statutory duties of that officer and does not govern for other surveys.

Agreed, Ric!

I was trying to point out that at some point in time a paradigm for County Surveyors was True Meridian.

We in private practice should do the same but it is easier not having to parenthesis' all the courses because one decided on put their survey on True. The sun 'n stars aren't going away anytime soon, (I pray! LOL).

With GPS it is now easier to get on True than taking a solar or Polaris.

Have a good weekend all . . . and let's hope we get some Fall sprinkles tomorrow.

Crazy Phil - Sonoma