Fires

[Dave Lindell]

I just retired. If there are any surveyors who have suffered loss due to the fires I am willing to donate all my equipment to anyone in need. Leave a message at (626) 765-6545.

[No_Target]

Does anyone know anybody who works regularly in these areas? My fire recovery experience isn't as often in the immediate aftermath, but I assume that clean-up operations will destroy many remains of monuments. If surveyors are willing to share data tying monuments to other monuments, it may be possible to restore the positions of many monuments now (or soon to be destroyed) at less cost to the affected regions. Any thoughts on this?

[bmsurvey]

My family business is located in LA and we frequently work in SGV. We are interested in helping in this situation in any way possible. We have already been contacted by quite a few current and past clients regarding their need to rebuild and wanting to get that process started. I would like to have a discussion with other local surveyors about how we might be able to collaborate to help streamline the process of surveying the affected areas once the areas are safe to be accessed. Certainly there should be some County and Municipal directives as to how the planning and permitting processes will be streamlined as well. I believe a collaborative and efficient surveyor's response to this tragedy is in the public interest. If anyone in the area wants to work together please reach out. Send a PM or call our office at 323-592-3589

[Ric7308]

Totally commend the responses from you three. As you imagine, state agencies are very actively looking for ways to assist right now. After a phone call with the Agency Secretary yesterday, I took the opportunity to explain the upcoming destruction of monuments which is bound to occur through a very large area as a result of the cleanup operations. I recommended that the powers to be collaborate with the surveying professionals at the local public agencies and local private surveyors as I am sure that several would be willing to help. Cannot guarantee anyone will listen but it never hurts to try...

[Mike Mueller]

It might be tough to coordinate efficiently when it comes to the surveying portion after a fire. I was part of the Tubbs Fire, Glass Fire and a bit with the Paradise Fire rebuilds and the one thing they all had in common was a lot of out of town folks showing up to help, who end up not always jiving with what the locals consider "proper".

Here in Sonoma County in 2017 we tried to do a massive list that let everyone know which firm/outfit was surveying in a block or particular area so we could share info, or direct homeowners to a firm that was working in their block already, but it reminded me of CAD standards.... it works great when folks follow the standards, but when some don't, it makes it practically useless to try and adhere to a SOP. It also ran into concerns of price fixing and cartel sorts of things.

In regards to the actual surveying, the company I work at tried to do one large RoS for each block, that didn't work out due to all the issues of trying to handle invoicing, timeline differences for each client, and also the consequences of trying to have a comprehensive solution meant that there was record and measure on many of the lots that confused architects, designers, inspectors, homeowners etc. Trying to have 1 CAD file for 15 different re-builds was tough. We tried having 1 large file that we added found monuments etc, but because of the multiple field crews doing work in the same areas point management became overly complex. It became our SOP to keep all projects small in terms of the deliverables and CAD files and just reference nearby jobs in the job notes, or on the company job GIS.

From the homeowners perspective they likely won't care about anything except speed. The tidal wave of work that needs to be done means that if folks can stay ahead of the curve, they move along pretty decent. If you get behind the curve, then all the various subs, contractors and professionals will be booked out 6-18 months. I speak from experience on that one, as I lost my house in the 2017 fire, the day after the fire I called the only local asbestos cleanup guy and got in line. 2 weeks later he was no longer accepting new work. The need for site plans will be crazy, and most of them will be pretty crappy...

Some discussions with the inspectors and building departments on if they are going to enforce setbacks and how they will do that would be worth having early on. Sonoma County ended up favoring the use of the foundation inspection to check setbacks, and it became the norm that if there were not monuments for a string line to be set up so the inspector could pull a tape measure out and check it, they failed. Mileage will vary as there appears to be ALOT of different jurisdictions impacted by these fires.

Hope anyone impacted gets through it well...

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[No_Target]

In regards to the actual surveying, the company I work at tried to do one large RoS for each block, that didn't work out due to all the issues of trying to handle invoicing, timeline differences for each client, and also the consequences of trying to have a comprehensive solution meant that there was record and measure on many of the lots that confused architects, designers, inspectors, homeowners etc.

Mikey can you help me understand this? Wouldn't this be a situation where blocks being resolved to define a single parcel's boundaries would be shown on the RS and then later homeowners and surveyors would benefit from the RS being available?

[Mike Mueller]

The speed that most of the stuff was done is the issue.

The CS was quite busy, and all county employees were over worked, so processing and recording a RoS or CR became a low priority. Site plans and topo maps were in HUGE demand. Sonoma County normally built 200-300 homes a year before 2017. Then 5000ish home burnt. 25 times the normal amount of stuff was being done.

This meant that the timeline to survey the entire block/subdivision, prepare and file a RoS, get it reviewed and recorded, indexed and known about was MUCH longer than the timeline of folks trying to get siteplans and topo maps. We found that if everyone had their field crews really flag up monuments well with lots of lath and such, it became basically the same as sharing CAD files. That way if someone found a buried pipe, everyone else could include it in their resolution.

So we started triaging our time because we decided it was better for the community to keep things moving in regards to siteplans, topo and monument recovery and replacement. I could spend a few days getting a RoS prepared and submitted, that would be paid by a single person, who does not have enough to rebuild properly, and it would not get filed for months. Or I could get 2-3 siteplans done per day on average, each done as a fixed for for easier approval by the homeowners and their insurance.

A side effect of the 25 times the normal work is the out-of-towners coming in to help. Research in each area is a little different, so the helpful out of towners often overlooked some of the 2nd or 3rd tier of research, like corner records. I expect there will be minor kerfluffles in 20 years or so when some of the areas in SR get re-examined and some pin cushions are found, or when one side of a block was solved with a two point tango and the other side by prorating between originals. In the big picture I think that is was better to get stuff re-built and people back in the homes faster than it was for every block to be perfect.

Reminds me of the dilemma faced by San Francisco in 1906. They choose expedience as well.

On a side note. When it comes to trying to save foundations, out of hundreds on inspections our engineers found only 1 foundation that survived the fire structurally intact, and that was a slab on grade where the homeowner had installed a radiant heating system inside a sand bed over the whole slab. All the other foundations we inspected had experienced enough heat that the rebar had expanded enough to break from the concrete and lost its structural integrity.

This meant that 99% of the homes needed new foundations. Due to changes in seismic code, that meant that ALOT of homes had to have piers and crazy complex foundations. Geotechs were another one of the major bottlenecks.

The coastal commission is another one to watch, as they will either need to waive almost all their rules, or they will significantly impact rebuilding. We have a client that lost their home to a normal home fire in Bodega Bay, and they are somewhere around 8 years of fighting with the Coastal Commission to let them rebuild. My bet is that a special rule will be passed by the legislature that allows the CC typical process to be waived, but who knows. Interesting times....

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[DWoolley]

I am familiar with the Pacific Palisades and Malibu areas that burned.

Mark my words, Californians have painted ourselves into a regulatory corner that will not allow these areas to be rebuilt for many years. In addition, we no longer have the leadership.

Dire Circumstances

Governor Newsom stated regulations will be waived to accommodate a “Marshal Plan” and “Reimagining LA 2.0”. I understand, he has to say something. The hazmat considerations for the clearing and demo will take more time than most folks can hang on. In short, folks will have to make their mortgage payments after a three-month reprieve, in addition to paying absorbent rent (somewhere ?), buying essentials, enrolling their kids in new schools, etc. They will inevitably have to sell the lot for anything offered to avoid foreclosure and bankruptcy. These homes averaged $3.5 million and yet, approximately 50% of the residents made less than $200k annually. If insured, they are sure to have been under insured. The 20% ALE, alternative living expenses, will not cover rent for long enough to rebuild. Cashing in their 401k will not provide anywhere near the money required to hang on, much less rebuild.

The Marshall Plan

In a broader sense, Americans have changed – the Marshall Plan was executed by George Marshall, Eisenhauer, Truman, Churchill and others – folks that made serious life and death decisions every day, for 4-5 years. These leaders were serious people born out of the circumstances. We, as Americans, including our leadership, no longer have the grit or skillset to execute a Marshall Plan. Reimagine this, Governor Newsom, circa 1943, wearing an M1 helmet and ivory handled .45, gesturing and gyrating, in the company of MacArthur, Eisenhauer, Bradley, Patton, Halsey or executives like Kennedy, Johnson, Truman, Rusk or George Marshall himself - reimagine the look on their faces. He is our twice elected leader, fair and square. This is our process; we elected him and it is personally incumbent upon me to support him. However, I am grateful I am not a buck private or full bird colonel in ’44 Bastogne knowing he is responsible for calling the shots or the instant example, dependent upon him facilitating the rebuilding of my neighborhood. This is not a political statement; it is simply the nature of things today. I do not have any leadership criticisms, alternatives or suggestions - I suspect our leadership is as good as any other. This is America in 2025.

Like me, California is Not Management Material

According to auditors, California spent $24 billion dollars on homelessness from 2018-2023 and didn’t track any of the money and homelessness spiked by 13% every two years since 2015. We also spent $31 billion in unemployment fraud during covid – the national number was “only” $45 billion, the High Speed Rail was estimated to cost $30 billion and today it is around $125 billion with a promise to ride from one dirt spot to another dirt spot in the California geography. To provide context, the Marshall Plan would have cost $150 billion in today’s dollars. Californians, with little more than a shrug, have been ripped off more than the entirety of the Marshall Plan. More Marshall Plan facts, by 1951, six years after the war, the European economic growth was 35% higher than the 1938 pre-war numbers. Understand, this was not a neighborhood in Southern California, this was rebuilding the entire infrastructure and industrialization throughout several countries (Goggle Dresden fires, Destruction of Warsaw, Belfast Blitz or Hiroshima damages - if reading isn't your thing, there are sure to be photos). After completion of the Marshall Plan, the Americans (Eisenhower, again) created the Interstate Highway System in 1955-56. Bringing it back to California, the Golden Gate Bridge took approximately 4 years to build. After Sherman burned the entire South it was rebuilt in 12 years. Six years after the California town of Paradise, post fire, a town of 26,000, less than half of the town has been rebuilt. We recently tried to build a floating pier/dock in Gaza, killed 2-3 Americans and abandoned the project within a few weeks of being operable. In the 20 years after Katrina, has New Orleans been rebuilt and the population restored? Nope. It is not our skillset, but there was plenty of fraud.

Compare size and scope of the 2023 fire in Maui to Palisades. Maui is still permitting.

Again, it is simply the nature of things today. Most of these poor folks that lost their homes are totally hosed - the news cycle will be long gone before Easter. The fraud will be rampant – as with fraud in California, we will accept it as normal. A modern-day scorpion and frog fable told over and over again.

I take the time to write this post to memorize something to look back at in the future.

DWoolley

[No_Target]

So I am up here in Northern California, a friend of people who lost houses in the Eaton Fire, wishing I could help. I posted on LinkedIn about it and people across the US reached out volunteering help - likely feeling similar to myself. I reached out to a few different surveyors, and posted here.

It sounds like: nothing you can do, leave it alone. Is there really nothing of value a non-local surveyor can do to help?

[bmsurvey]

Interesting times....

Thank you for your sharing your experience. A number of the items you addressed are things that we had started to discuss internally. I believe the approach that was carved out in the process of your experience in Sonoma will likely be very similar to the way things proceed in the Palisades.

I will pass along the anecdotal info regarding foundation destruction to our architect/builder/engineer clients that have been calling. Our firm's experience in Malibu with houses that had burnt down was that the city expedited the permitting process if you were rebuilding on the previous building footprint/foundation. Of course, as has been mentioned a few times in this discussion, "expedited" is all relative to the system's limitations.

Regarding the chokeholds and drawbacks of large scale rebuilding efforts - I have no doubt that for many of the victims of the fires, the end of the saga will be just as tragic as the beginning of it and there will be no going back to their previous life. But If 25% of those affected have a long term chance at a return to their "normal" life, and my skills can help push that number to 26% - I believe that is worth the effort.

[hellsangle]

Unrelated to surveying (maybe) . . .

I am reading over and over of all the family history that have been lost to fires. Photos. Letters. Memorabilia. “Things”.

This could be “fixed” or “preserved” by what I believe could be accomplished through the California’s Junior College system or Adult Education at the local level. Offer courses in “Preserving Family History”, whereby a lab class consisting of scanners at each students table, to teach those that are “computer-challenged” how to scan their family photos and correspondences. And how to preserve those files.

This would “record” a family’s history . . . and some day might aid a surveyor trying to determine the “lay of the land” at a certain point in time, (should the surveyor be so tenacious as to track down a family in the chain of title).

Years ago, I was curious of a surveyor W. Gordon Voorhies, (LS 2135), who I had heard so much about from my mentors. A surveyor’s surveyor they’d say. After subscribing to Ancestry.com a search was begun for this fellow. Long story short - I “scored” an heir and this fellow was so kind to entrust me with his family album. Besides, the “search” was fun!

Surveyors, (et al), please scan pictures and important correspondence of your family and professional life’s histories. We and historians may be the only people that “care” about this stuff, but should one encounter a fire calamity you will be happy you spent the time preserving this stuff!

Back to LS 2135 . . . As I discovered from the family album, it turns out he had a heavy hand in surveying the Golden Gate Bridge! (Our Chapter’s website employs one of his photographs: https://marinclsa.com/ (Gordon on right)

If you’re interested in reading more about Gordon Voorhies check out the below link:
https://medium.com/anne-t-kent-californ ... 30a351acc1

We were evacuated during the 2017 conflagration here in Sonoma County. In that conflagration we were most fortunate to come back to a smoke filled home. Also, fortunate for me, was over many years of scanning business and personal histories - I grabbed the server and all current jobs/equipment when we were told to evacuate and fled. Had we lost everything like the Pacific Palisades conflagrations at least we would have digital copies.

Scan. Scan. Scan.

Crazy Phil - Sonoma

[DWoolley]

Like many land surveyors, I have more than a passing interest in history. Governor Newsom referencing the Marshall Plan, something many of us are sure to be familiar with, was inappropriate as to scale and modern American capabilities. Frankly, the sheer awesome scale of the Marshall Plan and the accomplishment of a bygone era is interesting to contemplate. At home and in the office, I have bookshelves full of books detailing large scale accomplishments by thoughtful, serious leaders.

Watch the hands and listen for the reference and follow up question to the Marshall Plan here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLJ4LABBgBY

Last night, still pondering the outsized Marshall Plan reference, I re-read about Alexander the Great, before he was The Great, taking the city of Thebes. Thebes was a sophisticated spectacular city state with walls that had not been breached in seven wars. Alexander marched his soldiers three hundred miles in less than two weeks – something unimaginable at the time. The Thebians misjudged Alexander – even after having been warned he “was not like other people”. In the end, after his offer of a peaceable agreement was rejected, Alexander killed every Thebian over 16 years old and burned/destroyed every building except three temples. Every remnant of Thebes, including their unique dialect, was lost forever. In fact, they ceased to exist when the younger folks were absorbed into neighboring city states. Alexander was 20 years old. By the age of 30 he had one of the largest empires in ancient history.

Next time, we should discuss Hannibal’s war elephants or the afternoon in Cannae when he “double enveloped” 70,000 roman soldiers and had to spend the rest of the day killing them one by one with hand swords. Putting aside the carnage of the task, how daunting would the task be to have the boss say "Well, hell, now we have to kill them. Better hydrate before we start." Romans vastly outnumbered Hannibal's men.

If readers find these stories of interest, I recommend "The End of Everything: How Wars Descend into Annihilation" by Victor Davis Hanson. It is a collection of short stories that included the battle of Thebes.
https://www.amazon.com/End-Everything-W ... 1541673522

In contrast, walk into the next office and ask the 20 something if he will work overtime tomorrow - nope, work life balance considerations, forget about spending the afternoon in the hot sun killing 70,000 romans. We will not see a Marshall Plan in Palisades or anywhere else.

DWoolley

[Derek_9672]

If you’re interested in reading more about Gordon Voorhies check out the below link:
https://medium.com/anne-t-kent-californ ... 30a351acc1

Phil, great stuff ! The elation is real my friend. Thank you for putting together this little history.

[Mike Mueller]

Phil,

Here in Sonoma County there is a service at the History and Genealogy Library to help folks with that.
https://sonomalibrary.org/browse/librar ... s/playback
Reservations are booked all the way out last I heard from the library commissioner, but they open up new slots every month or so.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[hellsangle]

Thanks, Derek & Mikeeee!

[Mike Mueller]

will pass along the anecdotal info regarding foundation destruction to our architect/builder/engineer clients that have been calling. Our firm's experience in Malibu with houses that had burnt down was that the city expedited the permitting process if you were rebuilding on the previous building footprint/foundation. Of course, as has been mentioned a few times in this discussion, "expedited" is all relative to the system's limitations.

This same "expedited" permit process was hung in front of a lot of folks here too. It was the reason we were doing so many of the foundation checks. I think it is mostly because you were allowed to skip the geo tech and didn't have to bring the foundation up to new seismic code. For those un-familiar with the new requirements they are pretty significant in terms of the amount of metal that is added to the foundation to provide anchors to all the various engineering calcs to pass muster. Retrofitting an old foundation to meet the new requirements is generally impractical. The one foundation that our office helped bring up to code was on a cliff above a river, and it was somewhere between 500-900K to drill all the piers in, and get the helical anchors in and connect it all together with the existing foundation of the house. Also took a special contractor with special gear.

We had the same "rebuild in same footprint" thing also as the only way a non conforming structure could be put back. This mostly related to the houses that were too close to creeks or other setbacks. We also had a lot of the homes that burned being on septic systems, so there was also a policy of allowing whatever number of bedrooms and footprint you had before to be rebuilt, but if a someone wanted to expand their use, then they had to bring the septic system up to code and meet all the new setbacks etc. Since most of the septic code of Sonoma County is written to prevent homes being built this became a significant hurdle for anyone wanting to change their house.

I have heard that the Southern Cal areas are more reasonable on septic designs, so perhaps folks will have an easier time... /fingers crossed.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[Mike Mueller]

So I am up here in Northern California, a friend of people who lost houses in the Eaton Fire, wishing I could help. I posted on LinkedIn about it and people across the US reached out volunteering help - likely feeling similar to myself. I reached out to a few different surveyors, and posted here.

It sounds like: nothing you can do, leave it alone. Is there really nothing of value a non-local surveyor can do to help?

You can certainly help out, just be careful about assumptions and local practices.

Since some of the areas that burned are rich areas, with likely higher costs for services than other areas within a 2-4 hour drive, I would bet there will be many out of towners coming to do work. I often think of costs to be like a mountain. The higher the costs, the higher somewhere is on the mountain. So it is easy for CA folks to sell their midrange home and buy a mansion in Texas or Idaho, since they are moving "down" the mountain. Its tough for outsiders to move to CA since they are climbing "up" the mountain. The opposite is the case for services. Since anyone moving "up" the mountain will be making more money for the same work product, there will be lots of folks willing to come work higher up the mountain.

Here is a tale of two mountain locations:
Sonoma County: Fairly high on the Mountain:
Bids by the locals were generally higher than the bids from the out of towners, since our local standards for siteplans and such were generally higher than what I have seen elsewhere and the local cost of living meant that we generally pay our techs more than what can be earned in the hinterlands. So the out of towners were way cheaper, and so were used by lots of folks. This helped with the bottlenecks, but it came back to bite some of the home owners later when the local permitting agency sometimes wouldn't accept their work for various reasons. Another consequence was when there was a request/requirement to come back and stake something and the out of towner was no where to be seen. I wouldn't accept the previous maps/plans unless they showed monuments and such to get localized on and so some of these homeowners paid twice (really 1 and 1/2 since the first folks were so cheap).
If the local permitting agency had put out a standard minimum siteplan requirement that clearly stated that at least two monuments on the subject lot needed to be shown, it would likely have prevented many of the bad outcomes I saw from using out of towners. This eventually became the defacto standard because the building inspectors started wanting the monuments to verify foundation setbacks, like I mentioned above. It just took a year or two for that practice to become established and known about, during which most of the siteplans were already prepared, used and some were lacking. It had to be a known standard so that all the bids could be apples to apples on services covered.

Paradise: Lower on the Mountain:
The local standards for a siteplan often did not conform to our offices understanding of 8762(b). The costs of local services were roughly half of what we would bid when there were no concerns with 8762(b). This meant that we only worked for folks who wanted to both "skip the line" of local services, and who could afford us. One of the downsides for the folks who hired us is that we would resolve the boundary and show the difference when it was material, so we had clients have to redo their house designs when their lots were smaller than they thought and their designer had maximized their house width assuming the lot width was correct per the AP map/deed. Sometimes I felt like we made problems for folks because we identified things too thoroughly compared to what was "minimally acceptable" by the permitting agency. Lake County and their fire rebuild process generally followed the same pattern as Paradise. That location is also pretty low on the mountain. Minor historical fact, as far as I know, Lake County is the only county in CA to never have a railroad built to it.

If you do intend to assist in areas outside your normal range I would recommend getting on whatever email list there is for the agencies' workshops on the permitting process in that area and to reach out to surveyors in that area. Then conform to the local expectations and practices as much as you can, so that all the round holes get round pegs, rather than bringing the square pegs you "know" are better...


Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[Jim Frame]

Minor historical fact, as far as I know, Lake County is the only county in CA to never have a railroad built to it.

Not for lack of trying. No fewer than 14 attempts were made to organize and build a railroad into Lake County between 1879 and 1911. The last effort is apparently still alive, if only nominally.

(See https://middletownhistory.weebly.com/railroads.html)