ENGINEER finds Property Corners (Monuments) is he Land Surveying?

[TIB]

Clients, friends, stakes, corners, we could both go on, but wont. He probably was surveying by definition, but did not disclose it. Anyway, I am not defending him as much as taking exception to the complaint and actions of the neighbor. What do you think? Do you think the neighbor did the right thing? For the right reasons?
TIB

[Jim Frame]

What do you think?

The neighbors motives are unknown to me. My only interest in the matter is the unlicensed practice of a regulated activity.

.

[Lee Hixson]

Speaking of interest...what's interesting to me is that the original poster hasn't responded to any of the comments.

1. The total amount of his posts on this forum.

[land butcher]

Lets let the surveyor that doesn't file a RS because he set nails on PL prod in the street and didn't set the actual corners hang this engineer from the nearest tree.

[Stephen Johnson]

Speaking of interest...what's interesting to me is that the original poster hasn't responded to any of the comments.

1. The total amount of his posts on this forum.

Under this name. But under others?

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

This has to do with "holding out to the public."

If you are holding out to perform a restricted practice for money then you must have the required license.

You can try to split hairs or equivocate but the client is paying the Engineer's hourly rate for a reason.

The OP made a mistake, take your lumps and move on.

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

We have met the enemy and he is us!

LSs have to uncouple themselves from Civil Engineers, at least mentally.

I was sitting in the Dentist's chair getting a root canal and I said, Doc, could you take care of my ingrown toe nail too since I'm here already? He said, sure, I'll just cut that right out for you since you are under anesthesia anyway.

NOOOOO! that doesn't happen because other Professionals don't act stupidly.

I am related to three Civil PEs (Father, Uncle, Brother) and think they are great and smart people but they tend to treat Land Surveying as a technical sidelight. We can't allow that. Be tough.

Everything Jim Frame said is right. The motivation of the adjoiner is irrelevant. This is an example for the other PEs, though, you can get away with it 99 times then on the 100th the neighbor may be smart enough to complain. He is right to want a real LS to survey the common boundary.

What if I was doing a survey and the client said, Dave, while you are here anyway I need to know if my bridge is safe. Here's 500 bucks for you trouble, could you just quickly check it. I said, sure, no problem, if it needs any work then I will have to get my buddy the SE to sign the plans but maybe I can verify the bridge is OK myself and you could save a lot of money. I mean there's nothing wrong with that scenario, is there?

[Ian Wilson]

Dave, me oulde son...(and I do mean OULDE, today)...

That is a great example! I love reducio ad absurdum arguements. The tables are turned and the facts reduced to the absurd. The original arguement is put in a newand ridiculous light.

Your bridge example is perfect!...and one I fully intend to steal.

[land butcher]

Like pre 82 CE's that sign surveys for unlicensed surveyors, I have known CE's that allow a LS to do grading plans and sign off. So why is it unlawful for a CE to do a survey if he has a LS to sign off on it.

[bwatkins]

Because without "responsible charge" it's called Aiding and abetting.

[land butcher]

And the definition of "responsible charge" is?

[bwatkins]

PROFESSIONAL LAND SURVEYORS ACT
8703. Responsible Charge of Work
The phrase responsible charge of work means the independent control and direction, by the use of initiative, skill, and independent judgement, of the observations, measurements, and descriptions involved in land surveying work. The phrase does not refer to the concept of financial liability.


PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS ACT
6703. Responsible Charge of Work
The phrase responsible charge of work means the independent control and direction, by the use of initiative, skill, and independent judgment, of the investigation or design of professional engineering work or the direct engineering control of such projects. The phrase does not refer to the concept of financial liability.

[Peter Ehlert]

And the definition of "responsible charge" is?

see Board Rules, sections 404.1 and 404.2

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 7056qsp9dQ

[7702]

I hate to say it, but this thread makes a pretty compelling argument for requiring post-licensure studies. We have met the enemy and he is us! Ouch!

[Stephen Johnson]

I hate to say it, but this thread makes a pretty compelling argument for requiring post-licensure studies. We have met the enemy and he is us! Ouch!

Since I haven't actually practiced in CA in years, one way I keep up with changes in the rules and the board's attitude is through this board and others.

SJ

[land butcher]

I hate to say it, but this thread makes a pretty compelling argument for requiring post-licensure studies. We have met the enemy and he is us! Ouch!

Not really. In my case i know the rules and play by them, I just don't like the way the rules are selective and bent by others.

[LS 4722]

Dear Professoinals,
..... I was in a rural area where property corners had been set by a LS as a part of a Parcel Map.

If the monument matched the described corner on the parcel map, including registration tag, then that is not surveying. It is just reading a recorded map with a monument description and comparing what is in the ground to the map.

The Owner wanted me to help find his corners and he feared some were missing.

Now you are in a gray area. There really is not enough information in your post for me to comment further on this part.

Also he wanted a fence staked out in an area where the hills were too severe to pull a string line.

Since you stated that civils are allowed to stake out improvements , I haven't looked into that, not going to either, I'll take you at your word, then you have to find the property control, per the surveyors map, recorded or not, to properly stake the fence out. That's not land surveying. If it is, then any contractor who uses a surveyors monument that is described on a signed document by a surveyor to establish an improvement construction line, is in violation.

While merely looking for the existing property corners the neighbor complained to the board (since I stepped onto about a foot of their property).

To me, it seems there is more to this part than trespassing by 12 inches.

They cited me for practicing Land Surveying.

If you think they are wrong, fight it. Please do not just lay down and take it. Fight it, if you win, sue em.

[LS 4722]

From the OP:

I was in a rural area where property corners had been set by a LS as a part of a Parcel Map.

Please take note that the corners were set. So why do you insert the word 'determine' as far as Mr Alexanders involvement?

I take it that what you are saying is, that if you file an RS or CR and your client's neighbor has a copy of your work in hand, that he is in violation if he does the following without you being on site to supervise.

1. The neighbor cannot read the map, look at the filed record and make a decision that the monument he see's is in fact, the same one that is noted on the record.

2. The neighbor is in violation if he measures with a 15 dollar Home Depot 100 foot tape from the front monument he sees in No. 1 to the rear of his land, uses a shovel to remove a few inches of soil, and again, in total violation of the LS Act, makes a second determination that what he uncovers is in fact, that which is of record.

The Owner wanted me to help find his corners and he feared some were missing.

See above

Also he wanted a fence staked out in an area where the hills were too severe to pull a string line

So again, what you are saying is that any contractor who is hired to build an improvement can do so, but they are in violation if they look at your map, look at the described monument, determines that they are in agreement, and sets up a construction line to start his work without you or another LS being on site to make sure that the mapped monument and the one in the ground are the same.

I do believe our laws are clear that when one is hired to locate and determine monuments as being a property's corners is practicing land surveying.

Locate and determine was done by the parcel map LS.

Anyone who does not believe that is exactly what Mr. Alexander was doing, has a severe misunderstanding of the laws of this state.

Call me Mr Anyone. I see nothing in Mr Alexanders post about determining a corner position that was not previously done.

[JoeC]

Okay – I can’t resist.

First of all - I’m sure the Board did a complete job investigating BAlexander’s actions for surveying without a license and imposed the proper citation for his actions.

Whether or not he was surveying he is still held to a high standard – he is a professional and the public sees him as that. As for the neighbor helping to locate his property corners, yes - it is wrong but he is not a professional and not held to the high standards that we are. The land owner should know that and therefore assumes the liability - not the professional.


This is no different than a PLS helping his friend or client design a road section. Yes, the PLS may have the expertise to do this but he is not license to do so. So when the road fails or the PE uses the wrong monuments to set line stakes, who is responsible?

The Board's job is to protect the public – bottom line.

[TIB]

Well done LS4722. I agree 100%. Based on the original post I was also of the opinion that it was not surveying. After suggesting that idea on an earlier post, I was branded as unethical and a liar.
Every point you made was spot on, especially about standing and fighting against a complaint he did not deserve.
Some suggested his best course of action was to admit guilt, show remorse, beg the Board for leniency, then meekly accept their punishment. WOW.
It's not OK (or ethical) to get pooped on by others
I believe that those who consider it surveying by definition might actually be the ones with a severe misunderstanding of the law. It's possible.
Let's be real! Measuring a distance with a Home Depot rag tape, using a metal detector and a shovel to find a monument, comparing distances and monument descriptions with the recorded map, then putting up a string line, really isn't that difficult to understand. Most anyone of reasonable intelligence should be able to figure it out. And yes, some of them are not licensed.
TIB

[Peter Ehlert]

BAlexander has only made one post here, is he a troll or is he for real? Just asking...
I gave my 2¢ before, here is the rest of the nickle.


Maybe we should re-examine what was said by him/her, and come up with some possible scenarios... kinda like this is a boundary analysis:

"I was just cited by the Calif Board for surveying without proper license."
I wonder... was that a notice to appear or was a sanction imposed? No matter...

"I was in a rural area where property corners had been set by a LS as a part of a Parcel Map."
That sets the stage, BAlexander was moderately informed, nothing more.

"The Owner wanted me to help find his corners and he feared some were missing. Also he wanted a fence staked out in an area where the hills were too severe to pull a string line."
OK, that sounds like it could be a recon trip in hopes for getting some work subbing out some survey staking... it was known that some real surveying could be needed.

"While merely looking for the existing property corners the neighbor complained to the board (since I stepped onto about a foot of their property). They cited me for practicing Land Surveying. Oddly enough I did discover one pin missing and was planning to call a local LS to do a pin replacement but never got the chance."
Sounds like that last line dovetails with the pre proposal recon theory...

But we will all still be spinning in the wind and wild guessing this one unless someone comes up with some board minutes or BAlexander returns with some clarification.

[land butcher]

To me, it seems there is more to this part than trespassing by 12 inches.

All it took for the neighbor to call the cops on us was me standing on a planter RRtie at the bottom of a ~4ft slope to read the tag in the PC pipe. Neighbor insisted he owned to the top of the slope. And the Sgt that came out told us to leave. We were back 2 hours later after the owner of our parcel called the chief of police.

My neighbor is replacing his drive approaches and has a permit. The old lady next to him came out screaming at the contractor that they can't do that and her nephew is a cop and she is going to call him. My neighbor called the Sheriff who had to come out and set her straight.
And telling someone your relative is a cop and going to call him on you isn't considered a threat or anything similar according to the sheriff that came out.

[LS 4722]

If the contractor makes that determination solely on his own, then yes, he is violating the LS act.

So what you are inferring is that every RS and CR that is filed and indexed, any architectural survey, any plot plan, any surveyors map of any kind that describes a monumented position of offset to one is 100% useless to anyone without an LS license.

I remember when the recording act started in the early 80's. The whole point of the act was to get more information into the public data base for the benefit of all, professionals and laymen.

Now we have this monster that has developed over the years with outlandish RS fees in some areas that harm no one but the land owner. I am 100% for the dissolving of the counties checking any RS map at all. Let's just get back to why the recording act was started in the first place and remove the financial burden from the neck of the John and Mary Doe's out there.

Recording or filing will not change the surveyor who does that. If they are shabby surveyors, they will remain as such.

Actually the only difference between a good CR and an RS is the fee. Other than that, they are the same thing, a document that tells what was used, what was set and how it was done.

Ok I'm done.

[LS 4722]

.....And the Sgt that came out told us to leave. .

The right of trespass is in the civil and penal code, did you inform the Sgt that under state law, you were well within your rights?

I have, more than I want to remember, been confronted by the police quite a few times while surveying. I stood my ground and the cops left, not me. I do carry a copy of the act regarding our right of trespass and one time here in Glendale Calif, I was confronted by four officers in a rear yard. I explained what I was doing and the Sargent, who was a female, said "I didn't know that".

I gave her my copy of the act and she thanked me.

The point is, don't back down because a law enforcement officer is uninformed. Take the time to explain it to them, they will end up thanking you...well, the smart ones will.

[land butcher]

The right of trespass is in the civil and penal code, did you inform the Sgt that under state law, you were well within your rights?

I have, more than I want to remember, been confronted by the police quite a few times while surveying. I stood my ground and the cops left, not me. I do carry a copy of the act regarding our right of trespass and one time here in Glendale Calif, I was confronted by four officers in a rear yard. I explained what I was doing and the Sargent, who was a female, said "I didn't know that".

I gave her my copy of the act and she thanked me.

The point is, don't back down because a law enforcement officer is uninformed. Take the time to explain it to them, they will end up thanking you...well, the smart ones will.

This was before I was aware of that law, but I did hand a CLSA published copy to a Irvine cop and he just glanced at it and stated, "That's for the courts to decide".
It's a civil issue so the cops don't want to act against a complaint like that unless directed to by a court order.