Section 8764 (a) - PLS Act

[PLS7393]

Record of Survey Technical Requirements
Sectioin 8764 (a) states; "All monuments found, set, reset, replaced, or removed, describing their kind, size, and . . . "

Hopefully Ric Moore will also comment, but I am curious the feeling and interpretation of others.

Do you think it is too much to ask a surveyor to better clarify the type and size of a "set tag" on a record of survey, or corner record? We call out the type and size of a pipe (just don't clarify inside or outside diameter).

Look in the recent Surv-Kap Catelog and you have to order either 13/16" (3/4") Brass Tags, or 1 1/2", 2 1/2", or 3" Brass Disc. Remember you can also order Aluminum Discs.

I request them to clarify and perpetuate their monument, and so the next surveyor can be certain the point they find (50 to 100 years from now) is definately the original point set, or strong evidence, if the stamping is not legible.

Your thoughts? Agree or Disagree (please explain)

[Gromatici]

Found ¾â€￾ O.D. steel pipe with tag stamped “LS 3283â€￾ per R1; S.S. 1.0’. Accepted as SW Corner of Parcel.

Set 1â€￾ I.D. galvanized steel pipe with 2’ Brass Cap stamped “PLS 8226 – Boundary Markerâ€￾ flush with surface.

Legend:

I.D. Inside Diameter.
O.D. Outside Diameter
S.S. Sub-Surface

You can’t measure the inside of a pipe when there is a tag in it.

[RasterMaster]

Over the years of working for or with LS’s I have found that all of them do a diligent effort to describe monuments exactly. In most cases the field notes are used and this is where I have found variance of the descriptions. A field crew that has been trained by us normally describes the monuments correctly, just a slight variance if any. But during the times of calling crews from the hall or brining on rental crews to satisfy extreme schedules is where things go wacky, because of this, which is natural, we will walk the boundary to verify the details of points set and found. So for the folks I have worked for or with do every thing possible to get it right. Paying attention to the fine details of monument can make a world of difference.

RM

[Gromatici]

I learned to always visit the site and take a look at monuments. 1" described as 1.5" and fence post described as "old monument". Plus I don't want to tell the Judge I never visited the site.

[Gary O]

I'd rather have a lot of information than too little. Some surveyors wired brass tags onto their pipes which you wouldn't look for if it wasn't written. The same with pipes ground on the side with the LS number stamped on it.

Something that's obvious to the surveyor setting the monument may not be so obvious many years from now.

Ask for that info.

[btaylor]

Keith, I think you are referring specifically to brass tags. I know you redline the ROS maps to specify that a set tag is 3/4". My thought on that is standard size for a tag is 3/4", so the stating the size is superfluous. If one were to set something larger, then I would call it a washer of a specific size.

Eric, you cannot determine the diameter of a pipe if there is a tag in it? I do not follow.

[Ian Wilson]

Strongly disagree, Keith.

The purpose of placing your LS number on the tag is specifically designed to allow others to identify the tag. The size of the tag is irrelevant. The number is not. To say that the stamping might wear out rendering the size of the tag significant is not valid. As you point out the manufacturers mass produce the tags. Who is to say that the 3/4" tag with the numbers worn off is your or mine.

I don't care if the person who set the monument reported it as a 1-7/8" iron pipe. I care about the fact that the tag number is the same.

Who among us hasn't mushroomed the heck out of a pipe so that anyone coming after us would have a hard time determining the "exact" original outer diameter?

Bryan: the poster is not able to measure the INNER diameter of the pipe when the tag covers the pipe. I can't either.

This is a tempest in a tea pot. I want to be sure that the tag is the same as the last record for the point, that the pipe appears to be undisturbed and that the pipe is in substantially the position I expect to find it.

I'll bet that information carries the day in court long before your arguments over the diameter will.

[Gromatici]

Most of us can recognize a 1/2 pipe. It's inside diameter is 1/2" (plumbers care about the water capacity not the outside size). However, if it has a tag or plug in it, how you you really measure it? If the crew reports a 3/4" pipe with tag "ls 8945" and the record is 1/2" with tag "ls8945" they are likely the same pipe but the crew is reporting the OUTSIDE diameter, not the inside......... since they CAN NOT measure the inside (or inner) diameter when it's not an "open" pipe. As Mr. Wilson points out: "de minimus non currant lex" or " the law takes not cognizance of small things" - 2 B1. Comm. 262 (Cooley, 4th. Vol. 1) So I'll report it as found 1/2" Pipe. This is the stuff I see when walking the boundary- I highly recommend it.

Most surveyors are pretty sloppy at describing their monuments. "Set 2" pipe" -1909. However, we can usually figure it out. I like to at least say Inside Diameter or Outside Diameter for those who feel that a 1/4 inch is too much of an error! (Don't laugh, I've seen maps by Engineers who call of a pipe by 0.003')

Anyway, I set brass caps that say "Boundary Marker" inside a 1" galvanized steel pipe. If your crew finds a 1.5" pipe -open within .02' of the calculated corner, it's probably my pipe: especially if it's encased in concrete.

[Ben Lund]

Keith, I agree with Ian and think it IS too much to ask coming from a map checker. On the other hand, all evidence should be considered. Recently I showed “FD 2” IP NO TAG ACCEPTED AS SET 1-1/2” IP AND TAG STAMPED LS 3283 PER MAP 229.” I think it is a good idea to describe set/found monuments in as much detail is necessary thinking ahead to the future when tags and plugs might be missing.

[btaylor]

Why cant you determine inside diameter of a pipe when there is a 3/4" tag on it? I can somewhat understand of you have a capped pipe, and you can only see the outside from digging down and looking at the side, but even the you can measure the outside and tell what the likely inside diameter is, but if there is a plastic plug or 3/4" tag, it is pretty straightforward is it not?

[PLS7393]

It is interesting how the original thread is directed towards the size of tags/discs, and the powers that be (you all) have taken this to be directed towards the size of a pipe.

I'm not worried about the pipe size, even if it does help to describe the inside or outside diameter. The reason for that would be when your little yellow plastic plug deteriates and is no longer there, your LS number is also gone. If the pipe is correctly described, then you have some evidence that the "FOUND OLD 1" O.D. IP" may be the same, "ACCEPTED AS THE ORIGINAL PIPE PER R/S 1234".

We are talking apples and oranges here, but I'm concerned with tag/disc size.

Similar situation as the pipes are the brass tags. We know some companies don't stamp as deep as others, or field crew members set a 3/4" brass tag and nail. Hmmm, we all know the hole on a 3/4" brass tag is meant for a tack, and when a concrete nail is used, . . . what is that number? Don't know, I can't read it.

Give it another 50 to 100 years, cause that is what I'm attempting to perpetuate. If cars and trucks are driving over that brass tag, the numbers will continue to deteriate. Now when you go to retrace an old map and you find a "1" BRASS TAG, NUMBER UNREADABLE" (original map calls out "SET 1" BRASS TAG"), and the location fits, you have solid evidence it can be accepted as the original point as set by R/S #1234, because you have the correct evidence. What are you going to do if you find a 1" brass tag, unreadable, and the record map calls out a 3/4" brass tag? Are they the same original point of record?

Now go back and read Section 8764 (a). It is writen to specify "size".

So you know, I'm only worried to satisfy the PLS Act with new "set" points. I have no control of the past and if the old maps did not specify the size or type, I have no comment when a surveyor states "FOUND TAG". I accept it as he found it.

Again, I'd love to hear other view points, but only pertaining the issue of ttags/discs to be correctly described for set points, in accordance with the PLS Act, Section 8764 (a).

[Ben Lund]

Keith, I agree with the idea that a "set 3/4" tag stamped LS 1234" and the difference between a found "3/4" tag illegible" or found "1" tag illegible" could be significant (just like a pipe size discrepancy).

It’s too bad the tag is now illegible and it’s the wrong size. Other forms of evidence must be used to decide whether to accept it as the set monument.

[btaylor]

I will go with the original answer and use my idea that a "tag" is a standard size of 3/4", which is used for pipes or in lead on concrete, and anything larger would be considered a "washer" of a specified size. I have seen the term "tag" or "tab" used since the 40s, and they have been the same size.

(I was more than surprised yesterday to find a tag on a redwood grape stake fence stringer that was set in 1949, plain as day)

[PLS7393]

I will go with the original answer and use my idea that a "tag" is a standard size of 3/4", which is used for pipes or in lead on concrete, and anything larger would be considered a "washer" of a specified size. I have seen the term "tag" or "tab" used since the 40s, and they have been the same size.

(I was more than surprised yesterday to find a tag on a redwood grape stake fence stringer that was set in 1949, plain as day)

At least your on the right track Bryan. The latest Surv-Kap catelog calls out 13/16" as a "Tag", while the other sizes (1 1/2", 2 1/2", & 3" Dia. are Disc). Bryan, you already describe your points appropriately, as we have discussed. The problem is others call all washers/discs as a tag, no matter what size it is.

Did I mention what Section 8764 (a) says in the Professional Land Surveyors Act? You can explain the difference to the judge.

[Berk Blake, PLS CA]

When exactly did 13/16" become 3/4"? Is the size of the tag important? Am I allowed to set a 1/4" diameter pipe with a 1-1/4" tag? Is it durable?

Seems as you miss the point, most metal tags will be readable in a 100 years irregardless of their diameter. The question is will the plastic re-bar caps do the same? Based on my experience, the answer is no. I would suggest that you would be better off banning the use of plastic re-bar caps, or other plastic tags, as they obviously will not last the 100 years. I'll take the iron pipe with the proper diameter as described in the document that I am using for the retracement over the proper sized tag.

Why stop at the size of the tag? I think we should also describe the type and size of the nail, tack or escutcheon pin used to hold the tag as well as the tag's diameter.

Is the tag more important then the monument? I think not.

[btaylor]

At least your on the right track Bryan. The latest Surv-Kap catelog calls out 13/16" as a "Tag", while the other sizes (1 1/2", 2 1/2", & 3" Dia. are Disc). Bryan, you already describe your points appropriately, as we have discussed. The problem is others call all washers/discs as a tag, no matter what size it is.

Did I mention what Section 8764 (a) says in the Professional Land Surveyors Act? You can explain the difference to the judge.

OK thanks. It appears you refer more to the other types which I also set, being a 1-1/2" washers, and I agree it is good to describe their size, which I did not used to specify untila certain surveyor *coughKeithcough* joined San Mateo County.

[Ian Wilson]

Again, the size of the tag is superfluous. As you pointed out, Keith, the manufacturers make standard sized tags. The tags we buy come from a few sources. Your tag and mine are probably exactly the same size. The size of the tag 50 years from now won’t make a bit of difference, even if the stamping is less than legible.

If I find a monument with an illegible tag or even a missing tag, I want to know whether that monument is in the approximate position I except it to be. If it is, I’m likely to accept it as being “the” monument even if it’s clearly a ¾” pipe and the map calls for a 1” pipe.

Oh, by the way, yesterday, the crew found a lovely iron pin with an oval shaped brass tag clearly stamped “CE1709”. Care to guess how long that bad boy has sat there marking the position for the corner?

§8764(a) of the PLS Act reads:

8764. The record of survey shall show the applicable provisions of the following consistent with the purpose of the survey:
(a) All monuments found, set, reset, replaced, or removed, describing their kind, size, and location, and giving other data relating thereto.


The size refers to the monument of which the tag is but one part. The section does NOT make mention of the size of the marking device.

The last phrase is not a “catch all” phrase.

You’re not turning maps back asking to have a record of the name of the person who actually set the pipe and the name of the person who fixed the tag are you? Why not? Based on your assessment of the importance of the size of the tag, this information is as significant. Perhaps we should add the date and time that monument was set as well.

Keith, I do not find the size of the tag to be significant information. Neither does any agency to which I have ever submitted maps in over the past twenty plus years.

The fact that I set a 1” iron pipe tagged LS 7010, flush, is significantly more important.

If you want to go after something of real significance, ban the use of plastic plugs in San Mateo County. They are rendered illegible relatively quickly. The plastic degrades and falls apart in relatively short order. How many times have you put the point of the rod on the remains of a plastic plug only to have it crumble into nothing? THAT is FAR more damning than not identifying the size of the tag.

Incidentally, have you ever retraced any of Gurdon Wattles surveys? He used tiny little rectangles of aluminum sheet stamped with his number. From the ones I’ve seen, he made them himself. Try sizing those.

[PE_PLS]

I agree with Ian and BTaylor. Where does it stop? Do I need to state the thickness of the tag too? If I use a tag larger than the standard 3/4" I always state the diameter and call it a WASHER, not a tag. To me a tag is always in reference to a 3/4" tag.

[Ian Wilson]

PE: You missed the size of the stamping and the depth. Perhaps we should include the composition of the tag, too.

Hmmm... probably some heavy metals in the alloy, too.

Oh crap! Now we need to start hanging Prop 65 warnings on the pipes, too.

[Gromatici]

1920: Set Pin.

1950: Found Pin.

1982 Found Axle Per R1.

2009: Found Axle per R1; 5/8" Diameter, up 0.3'. Accepted as true corner.

2100: Found Machined Solid Steel Alloy Rod 11/16" in diameter, up from Surface 0.32'. 0.012' From True Corner. Coordinates accepted by GIS/Real Estate Bureau and published hereon.

2500: Set mound of stones and pits.

[PLS7393]

After reading all (well some) of the responses here, I do agree when a tag is set with a pipe, the tag size is typically is 3/4" diameter, and noting the size wouldn't be as critical. Maybe the clarification (I.D. verses O.D.) is more critical to identify the original pipe 100 years from now?

Section 8764 (a) talks about "size". I ask you all to read and think about that section and wording relative to the points you set.

One of my main "size" issues pertaining "tags", is when they are set not on a pipe. Did they set a 3/4" brass tag and nail in concrete, or did they set a 1 1/2" dia. aluminum washer/disc and nail in concrete?.

When I brought this issue up on a review to a certain surveyor who participates on this forum "coughbryancough" he actually agreed (I think) and does clarify his points better now, thanks! After this thread, he might go back to his old ways, heheheee.

Thanks for all the chat, and hopefully someone has learned something from this.

[btaylor]

FYI, for those outside of the County Keith and I work in, we have had a good deal of time (before Keith came on board) where certain descriptions were sorely lacking. My favorite term being the "standard city monument", which basically means anything found inside a cast iron sleeve and cover. I went to one a few years ago that had an old hub and nail inside, possibly set from straddlers before the street was paved over a few times. I would assume the standard city monument type would not be a hub and nail in a casing.

[Ric7308]

Staying in context with some of the comments regarding the tag being an accessory to the actual pipe (monument), I would think the situation would be different when the tag actually becomes the monument and not the accessory, as Keith mentions with a nail & tag set in concrete.

In that regard, if the object set is not the "typical" brass tag that first comes to mind when reading the term, I would think it prudent for a land surveyor to recognize that and provide a more detail description.

Basically, like a great deal of what we deal with, it comes to regional knowledge. If the found (or set) monument differs from what a land surveyor familiar with that region expects to be the "norm", it would be wise to provide a detailed description.

Ric

[goodgps]

Keith,

Are you also asking what size nail was set with this tag in the concrete ?

16d ? 5/8" bolt and tag ?

I think some of the LADIES and GENTLEMEN here, pointed out that size of the monument is subordinate to the position. How many of us have run across Iron Pipes with tags and a cup tack set .01' from the center of the pipe, but the whole pipe is 5 feet off ? or a tenth or anything?

Also If one is thinking of head hunting. . . .. once my filed crew turned in noted stating untagged half inch iron pipes when the map called for 3/4" tagged pipes. Noting the map as hving been done by a reputable surveyor. I went to the site and dug deeper only to find the tagged 3/4" pipes with the half inch pipes having been set to surface by the owner.

"grump"

[PLS7393]

Good Question.
No I do not request the size of nail, thats not my job. I will ask if the "found nail and tag" is a "PK nail" as shown on R/S # 1234.

If the reply is "no", it is a concrete nail, but the previous filed map calls a different character, then I might ask, "how do you know your found point is the point set per the previous map"?

It is the licensed land surveyors map, and his/her responsibility when signed, but I will point out issues of interest for them to think about.