Young generation v. influence

[goodgps]

Throughout the threads, it has been mentionioned that we should be careful of our posts and opinions for fear that "younger" surveyors may be misdirected.
This could be wise, if not other than to simply reduce the amount of misdirection that, MUST already be available to the younger generation.

Example, some time ago, I had stamped a cap for a section corner replacement. The stamping was in accordance with the 73 manual of instructions, and duly noted in the field book.

One of my then, young protege's drafted a corner record plat and presented it for review.
It was noticed that the image of the stamed cap was incorrect.
Without hesitation, the youngster quickly stamped a new cap and set about to repace my "incorrect" stamping. . . . . needless to say, the stamping was correct, the field book notes were correct and now he just spent some free time and bought himself a nice monument cap.

The point I make, is that this generation is already mis-guided (somehow) into thinking that whatever they do is correct, and somebody else has made the error.

When I had a bevy of employees, I'd hear every day "this deed or map doesnt close" The record documents are all screwed up !!!!!

It was an arduous task to get these young educated people to RECHECK their own work.

So I agree with DWolley and KWilson about not leading the young astray, however, I'd like to investigate some of the Education programs that seem to be doing just that.

What does anyone else think ????

signed;
cOld and Grumpy

[bryanmundia]

I feel that I am that younger generation surveyor and really disagree with what has been said about misguiding us on these forums. I look to my elders for guidance and help and although I do have my own opinions formed, I do appreciate the help and other views of my fellow surveyors. Do I think that I am always right? Definitely not. Am I confident with the work I do? Absolutely! I feel that there are a lot of guys my age who feel they are entitled and trust me, it bugs me like no tomorrow.

I am a hard worker and will be the first to check my work if something doesn't come out right. If it comes out wrong a second or third time, that is when I ask for help. If still the problem can't be resolved that is when I question the validity of the map or document.

I feel that those experienced in the surveying industry need to be careful in making generalizations. I look to this forum for other points of view and opinions of those in my field. Although I respect everyone's opinion, trust me, I don't take it as gospel and will definitely check the facts to make sure everything is right.

I have found that in my search for a job I have met a lot of people in the industry and not one of them has been a jerk. As a matter of fact, just the opposite, I have heard nothing but positive feedback and encouraging words from those that have been through recessions of the past. I believe what you guys are saying is true and that is why I am not turning my back to the surveying industry in search of a quick buck in some other field (since my degree is in business).

I enjoy surveying not just for the scenery but because it is a profession with so many different points of view and all which are important to consider. I thank everyone I have talked to in this forum as they have made me realize even more that this profession is what I want to call home.

So to all those older and more experienced surveyors out there, please give us your opinions as they are valued more than what you think. As we go through this tough time in the economy we need those words of encouragement and those opinions to know that there are still people out there who care about this industry. I know I come on this forum every day wanting to know what is the hot topic of the day is and what everyone has said about it.

[E_Page]

A forum like this, with so many contributing, and so many more watching, presents a variety of information and opinion. Some of that info is unarguably correct, some unarguably incorrect. Same goes for the opinion. Some conforms with the law and a little is out to lunch and out of the mainstream of what is considered good practice. And, as is the nature of professional opinion, much falls in the gray area of simply representing a different approach.

Fortunately, there are many knowledgeable contributors here who often back up their posts with authoritative references.

If new licensees and aspiring licensees are coming here to get opinions on what is the correct thing to do, or what would be considered good practice, they've come to a place where they are likely to find good answers.

One thing that we can't instill in them is the discernment to separate the wheat from the chaff. Each of us needs to develop that mostly for ourselves by looking critically at each response. Did that poster explain themselves well? Did thy present solid reasoning? Do they cite appropriate reference?

The "I'm right until you prove me wrong" attitude is not something new to the latest generation to hit the workforce. It's a maturity (or immaturity) thing that has always been around as far as I can tell. A few learn to trust the more experienced and question their own work while they are still in HS. Some never learn it. But most learn it early in their working life, when they start experiencing real consequences for bad decisions.

I've seen that attitude in a few much older than I as well as in many younger than I. Where the effect of those bad decisions is mostly limited to the "I'm always right" person, I try to step out of the way and let them learn from their mistake. But sometimes you need to step in and not let them replace a properly marked cap with an incorrect one.

As to the schools, some come out thinking their degree, which is four years of hitting the highlights of a wide range of surveying subjects and delving into little or nothing in much depth, has instilled them with knowledge beyond that of their licensed bosses and coworkers, especially if those licensed people have a lesser degree than Mr. or Ms. Knowitall, or no degree at all. But not all graduates are like that. It seems that arrogance and actual work experience have an inverse relationship in the recent graduate's demeanor.

I am concerned that many of the schools offering BS degrees are more concerned about their instructors having advanced degrees than having license to practice the profession they they are training others to practice in.

IMO, university level instruction should be considered a licensed activity under §8726.

[bryanmundia]

Well I can't agree more either. Being a recent student I have to agree that there is a noticeable difference between a teacher who is licensed and one who is not. Before turning to surveying I was a Civil Engineering major at Chico State. Part of the coursework for civil engineering in Cal State schools is 2 semesters of land surveying. Well I took both semester while I was there, one course was with a professional teacher who was not licensed and one was with a teacher who was both a PE and LS in the state.

The difference was noticeable and the second instructor who was licensed was the reason I changed majors to business and began my career as a land surveyor. He taught things differently, very rarely using the book. We would take field trips to areas which were under construction and he would explain what was being done in the area, how surveying was applied to the construction and would point out in the book as to what formulas and ideas were used to do things such as stake vertical and horizontal curves.

Whenever possible he would also point out monuments in the streets and sidewalks and explain the importance of not only monumenting your work, but filing the correct map/document which would help the public and your fellow surveyors better understand the situation.

I have stayed in contact with the teacher for around 8 years now and still talk with him on a weekly basis. I thank him for explaining to me the importance of surveying and surveyors.

Now, the professor who was not licensed. He taught verbatim from the book. We did very little real world projects or even discussed real world problems. I think it was by far the most boring and uneducational class I took in my 5 years of study. When I asked him a question he would have to refer to the book every time in order to answer the question.

The end result, Licensed Instructor = B+ in the class, Unlicensed Instructor = C.

I know that different people have different teaching styles and students learn differently but this was a night and day difference. I think of the licensed instructor like most people on this forum, very helpful and willing to improve the profession. The unlicensed teacher, just there for the paycheck.

[Greg Ippolito]

A piece of advice that was given to me by the licensed instructor in the first few weeks surveying class was. Always check your work. If you’re coming up with something different from someone else, there is a good chance you made a mistake. And if not – maybe the other surveyor knows something that you don’t. If you still have a problem after you check your work – pick up the phone and give them a call. I’ve found that 99% of the time surveyors are happy to take the time to talk.

[goodgps]

This is a great discussion. I'm gaining confidence in our profession. B^)

Now if I were only as clever as Evan "The Terrible" "Wheat from the chaff" I love it.
Evan is correct whereby there has been stubborness and arrogance throughout the ages, ( in any profession) I've just found it more prevalent lately. Its been more difficult to convince folks to check their own work.
After having been licensed for a couple of years now . . or decades ? I check every line I draft in cad and double read every "shot" taken in the field.
Eyes, minds and many things play tricks on us.

I love watching New guys walk into fences and trees as they follow the DAta collector screen, heading to a "way" point.
Changing a point of view to "horizontal" instead of "vertical" helps tremendiously.
When My Dad saw something that didnt look right, he'd thow up his hands and loudly say "HOLD IT" "something isnt right" everthing would stop until the error was corrected or the problem was solved.
The Pride was in doing something right, not doing something quickly.
Perhaps this is the problem. We can do so many things quicky, that we forget to make certain it correct ???

I appreciate this discussion board. 'learned a great many o things and expect to learn more each day.

THANKS !!
GH