Centerline Tie Notes filed with the City Engineer

[subman]

Most City Subdivision Ordinances require centerline tie notes (usually 4 reference point L&Ts) to be submitted to the City Engineer for each centerline intersection monument as authorized by Sec 66495 of the SMA. I would speculate that we would all agree that setting centerline monument ties is "land surveying" regulated by the PLS Act.

I am trying to understand why the setting of centerline ties does not trip the requirement for filing a Corner Record with the County Surveyor. The ties are not shown on the final/parcel map (only the centerline intersection monument; i.e PLS Act 8773.4). Neither the PLS Act nor the CEAC Guide to the Preparation of ROS and CRs discusses "Centerline Tie Note" documents. Should they be discussed in the PLS Act as an exemption to filing a Corner Record if properly prepared and submitted to the City Engineer per the standards established by the City for such records and properly filed and indexed?

If so, then does the City Engineer have an obligation to "review" them? If so, I would suspect that falls within the definition of "land surveying" which requires the individual to have a PLS or a Pre-82 Civil license.

I would appreciate some feedback from both the private surveyors and County Surveyors. Thanks.

[bruce hall]

your question is that there isn't anything new being set at the corner(centerline intersection) except what is shown on the subdivision map, nothing is being ripped out, no monument is being rehabilitated,nothing has changed at the corner(the centerline intersection) that is different than what the subdivision map states.

As to whether or not someone at the city is obligated to review these centerline tie notes, why? Why not just put it all on my hook, if I am the guy setting the centerline int and ties. No boundary lines are being established or reestablished here, the subdivision map established that, I am just setting some ties that will get knocked out when the city puts in new wheel chair ramps or a new right turn pocket.

I am sure that there are several members who read this forum that may object to this first shot at answering your question, but that is how I see it at this moment in time.

[Jim Frame]

Under the circumstances described, my reading of the statutes is that a Corner Record is voluntary, not required (§8773(c) says that a surveyor "may" file a CR). In other words, I agree with Bruce.

.

[Jim Herrick]

In the counties and cities where I practice there is no requirement for these ties. I can only speculate as to what they are since I have never set one. I am assuming that they are bearing and distance or at least distance ties from the L&T to the centerline monument. As such I would call them assecories to the corner and I think they should be shown on the map.

The reason there is no special section for these ties is that they are not required or used in all area. It would appear to be a local requirement and certainly not a state wide requirement.

Jim Herrick

[pls7809]

The City of Riverside Tie Sheet list has been compiled from ties prepared by the Public Works Department Survey Section and ties submitted by private Surveyors and Engineers as a requirement of new subdivisions. The City continues to add to this list as new Tie Sheets are prepared or submitted.

NOTE:
For over 100 years the City of Riverside has striven to maintain centerline monuments and prevent their destruction. The over 10,000 tie sheets in this list is testament to this commitment. Upon passage of Section 8771 of the Land Surveyors Act the City intensified its efforts to tie out and reset all monuments subject to destruction or being buried by street re-construction. These ties were indexed in the City Tie index. Since most Land Surveyors were directed to the City for research this worked very well. It was the City's opinion that we were in compliance with the intent of Section 8771.
However despite these efforts, in February, 2000, the City was the subject of a complaint filed with the Board of Registration by the Joint Professional Practice Commission due to slurry seal covering monuments. The Board and Joint Professional Practice Commission required the City to submit Corner Records to the County. Furthermore the County Surveyor refused to waive the indexing fee. As a result it is the policy of the City of Riverside to submit Corner Records to the County of Riverside for all centerline monuments subject to street reconstruction or paving. It is the City's intention, through payment of the indexing fee to let the County of Riverside become the sole repository of Monument Ties within the City of Riverside.

To date the City has submitted over 500 Corner Records for indexing. The City does not maintain an index of these Corner Records. For copies of these Corner Records please contact the County of Riverside Survey Section.

Hint: Make sure you check with the County of Riverside for Corner Records.

Hint: Ties are crossed indexed. So when searching the tie indexes please make sure you check for ties based upon both street names. For Example: If your looking for a tie sheet at Magnolia Avenue and Central Avenue check the index for M's, Magnolia and Central, then check the C's for Central Avenue and Magnolia Avenue.

http://wam.riversideca.gov/PWSurvey/hints_ties.asp

[pls7809]

Including them as details on the maps is probably the easiest way to do it and most convenient for retracing surveyors. Everything is in one place. Most agency subdivision fees are based on a per parcel or per lot rate, so adding a sheet isn't a big deal.

I check for a city in LA co. I will request CR's from now on. I never really thought about it before.

We did a post-const. RS for a bridge in San Bernardino and have one or two sheets with ties. Also along the 74 in Riverside Co.

[Gromatici]

Seems to me that centerline ties are part of the submittal being required by the Agency and are exempt under section 8765(c) of the LS Act.

However, if your "preserving" monuments shown on ties, then yes, there should be a Corner Record per Section 8771(b) of the LS Act.

[Gromatici]

Many municipalities require center-line ties because they want to "preserve" the location of the center-line monument. I think it falls under the exemption to the LS Act because it is part of the Final Map submittal. A corner record isn't necessary or even advantageous because the points are not of record yet (although the work around isn't a big deal).

I don't think any law is being violated by providing center-line ties vs. Corner Records for new subdivisions.

[Gromatici]

They don't require ties around here, so I'm out of the loop I guess. The was a lot done in the past however. The custom for the few tract maps that do have ties is to prepare 8.5x11 sheets and the County Surveyor indexed them. That was a couple decades ago however. All points had a tag in them. There are quite a number around town, but I haven't seem any on the more recient subdivisions.

[Jim Frame]

Based on further thought spurred by some of the posts above, I'm going to change my conclusion to agree with those who maintain that a CR or ROS must be filed. I base this on something I didn't properly consider before: §8762(b)(1), material evidence not shown on a record document. I was thinking that since no new evidence was discovered during the survey that no documentation was required, but the tieout monuments themselves constitute that evidence, thus requiring a CR or ROS.

.

[subman]

Assuming the consenus is that a CR or ROS is needed, what do all of you think about actually showing details of the L,T&T centerline ties on the final map or parcel map. On the surface it appears to be the best solution. It saves a seperate CR or ROS document from being preparded because it is now exempt from a CR or ROS because the notations are properly shown on the final/parcel map (PLS 8773.4(b)(2). It places all the accessory monument evidence of those ties in the records of the County Surveyor along with the record that shows the actual centerline monument (i.e. the final map or parcel map) because all subdivision maps must be kept on file with the County Surveyor. It also would relieve City Engineers in cities that require them by local ordinance of maintaining seperate "Centerline Tie Sheet" records for future subdivisions (only manage what has been filed to date). If they want to continue adding them to their inventory, then they can add an index number to the recorded final/parcel map and use the map as the "Centerline Tie Sheet" notes.

What are the down sides?

[Peter Ehlert]

Dan Manion
The swing ties are Monuments and require a tag. Period.

The physical nature of a monument has Nothing to do with requirements to file an RoS or CR.

[pls7809]

Dan,

Setting Leads and Tacks only is against 8772. All references should be tagged.

[mpallamary]

The act of measuring and locating the ties is surveying. The accessories are monuments. In fact these are called accessory monuments. This is surveying and the activity needs to be documented. Depending on the nature of the work, any of the acceptable documents can be filed, i.e. a CR, ROS, PM, or Sub map.
No debate from this post.

[bruce hall]

of these "centerline ties" is a great idea. And they better be tagged. If not,someone screwed up. The filing of a record should be done, but is is required? Is it the law? I am still looking for it.

Section 8772 talks about visibly marking or tagging "any monument set blah, blah blah". Doesn't say anything about filing a CR or a RS in this section.

Section 8771 only talks about CR's and RS's when there are monuments located prior to some type of construction or work in streets or easements, which isn't the jist of this thread. This is a brand new subdivision.

Section 8762 talks about "material evidence" or "physical change" which would make necessary the filing of a RS. Now the tract map doesn't show these lead tack and tag ties in the curb, in fact it doesn't show any curbs either. Are these tagged ties the "physical change" that is being talked about in 8762? I don't think so.

I think that this "physical change" has to do with the monument at the centerline intersection or the pipes at the sideline(if they get destroyed or replaced). In fact the Guide to Preparation of CR's and RS's indicates that "physical change would apply to topographic or landmark features of importance to the survey which, if not noted, may adversely affect the interpretation of the survey." Now this is a completely different take on physical change than my mind has. Do these tags in the curb fall into this definition? Either mine or the Guides'?

In the "material evidence" part, is 8762 talking about cloth or iron pipes or spikes or wood or what? None of these. Again back to this pamphlet mentioined above- "Material evidence has been defined as evidence of sufficient import as to affect the outcome of a court case, and includes, but is not limited to, the particular items in Section 8764...."

Section 8773 uses a "may file" verbage for these reference monuments-the ties in the curb.

Now like I said in the beginning of this little essay, I like filing the CR's on these tags, it should be done, it is best for everybody, put it on the Subdivision Map (add another sheet or two for ties) if you want, but I don't think that these types of "accessory monuments" that we are talking about in this thread as they pertain to BRAND NEW SUBDIVISIONS, are required by law to have a record filed regarding their existence with the county surveyor.

Now the stuff written in the "Guide", I didn't write it, and I didn't write all that stuff in the PLSA either. Just trying to figure this stuff out, and so far this is how I see it.

But like I have said previously on this board, "I've been wrong before."

[subman]

In Los Angeles County, a high volume of maps that we check, approve and record are infill redevelopment in the cities surrounding LA (teardown SFR and build multi-unit condos). A block survey is performed utilizing existing centerline monuments to establish the boundary of the subdivision. Those monuments in most cases do not have sufficient accessory monument ties, so we request the surveyor to set L,T&Ts to ensure four centerline monument ties are present at each intersection of the block to perpetuate the location of the centerline monuments in the event future road construction impacts the centerline monument and its original location can be re-established. In about 100% of these types of subdivision maps, the monumentation is set and inspected before the map records because there will be no road construction at these locations to warrant deferring and posting monument security. The quality and record keeping of the City Engineer Centerline Tie Note records that are produced vary significantly between cities depending on their staffing and budget.

For those cases that Mr. Woolley mentions above that involve new construction, the subdivision map can still show the locations of the accessory monument ties as "To Be Set" just like the primary monument, and bonded for. If the location of the tie after construction deviates from the location shown on the final/parcel map, a certificate of correction (COC) can be prepared to show the "as built" location of the tie. It is common practice to file a COC if the character/location of the "To Be Set" monument changes. In my jurisdiction, the COCs are added as additional map sheets to the original recorded final/parcel map.

[subman]

If a L,T&T centerline monument tie is a "point" and it is not shown on the subdivision map; PLS Section 8762(b)(4) states: ...after making a field survey...the surveyor shall file a ROS...if the survey discloses any of the following:(4) the establishment of one or more points or lines not shown on any subdivision map, ...the positions of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map or ROS.

This section makes no mention of ascertainable from inspection of a City Engineer Centerline Tie Note sheet. One may make an argument that a CR is acceptable in lieu of a ROS.

However, I still think the most efficient method and the best outcome for the public and the surveying community is to show the ties on the subdivision map if the local jurisdiction's subdivision ordinance requires centerline tie monumentation.

[bruce hall]

8762(b)(4) is not a monument as far as survey goes, IMHO. I think that it means a "position or place on a line" that doesn't appear on the maps mentioned.

Section 8762(b)(5) uses the terminology ..."points or lines" also. Are these the same types of "points and lines" being discussed in the preceeding subsection?

There is some type of definition in math or some such dicipline that defines a "line" and a "pont". And I am sure that there is some fella or fellette out there who can post it. Cause I can't find it and I am not gonna spend the time now to do it.

If the writers of this portion of the PLSA wanted ...."monuments(points) or lines not shown..." I would have thought that that is how it would have been written. Unless, of course, everyone knows that monuments and points have the same meaning, and they don't. Again that is MHO.

Consider the use of the term "point" in the following - point of curvature, point of tangency, point of intersection, point of beginning. They all seem to have something to do with a position along a line. And not necesarrily monumented. There probably are exceptions to this course of reasoning and if you want to bring it up, go ahead, but I think that it would still be an exception.

Now a line in surveying in Section 8762, for the most part, has to do with a demarcation, a border or a limit - like the boundary or line of division between two estates or something like that. I mean what "lines" are being discussed in 8762(b)(4)?

Now these LTT ties on this NEW SUBDIVISION are not on any new "lines" nor are they "points" along a line. They might be at the end of a "tie line" but not a boundary line.

I still think that is good practice to file the records on these new accessories, but I don't think that is required by law for a NEW SUBDIVISION.

PS: I remember something in high school about points and lines. I think it was something like this-"A line is a vector between two points" or something like that. Anyway, this is an hour since I posted the above.

PPS: Just looked up "line" in the Americana. "A line MAY be described as the track of moving points. It has no thickness or breadth". Now what's the point, you may ask. I don't know, this is just the ramblings of some fella who should be drawing lines and circles instead of this.