INDUSTRY POLL ON RECORD OF SURVEY FEES

[Jim Frame]

"A $1500 'fee' is not related to the the actual impact; it forces private companies to back-fill the county's declining budget."

I don't believe that's a fair characterization. The Board of Supervisors had to make a legal finding, based upon a rational assessment of the facts, that the fee reasonably represents the average cost to the county of checking a ROS. Where you (and I and others) might disagree with that assessment is probably in the scope and details of the ROS review.

I don't for a minute believe that any counties are fraudulently inflating their ROS checking fees in order to generate net revenue. They just don't want to have to divert general fund monies to support that function, and I can't fault them for that.

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[pls 3875]

Sorry Michael, I didn't intend to interrupt your thread, but I did enjoy the rare support received. Thanks guys we have to keep pushing. It is possible.

Surveyors are the only ones that use Corner Records. We should be in charge of the criteria. I am interested in recovering the monument that is buried under that nice new overlay. I don't really care if there is a misspelled word on the CR.

The tie distances and the character of the monument is the important information for me.

[torgsurv]

I agree with Mr. Francis (PLS 3875). The problem is not how much the the agencies are charging for the time spent reviewing the surveys, but that they are spending too much time reviewing the surveys. It should just be a quick look over to make sure that the basic map requirements are met or to catch major drafting blunders, but instead they often spend many hours reviewing the procedure and calculations. I'm a proponent of turning in mylars on first submittal.

[subman]

For Los Angeles County

21.20.080 Record of survey checking fee.

A. Where the county surveyor is required to check record of survey maps under the provisions of the Professional Land Surveyors Act, the surveyor shall pay a map checking fee to the county surveyor in addition to all other fees and charges required by law. These fees, payable on submission of map for checking to the county surveyor, shall be as follows:
1. First sheet, $160.00;
2. Each additional sheet, $55.00.
B. This section applies to all records of survey checked by the county department of public works whether the property is within the unincorporated area or not. (Ord. 91-0074 § 1, 1991.)

[E_Page]

Can't record your map? I don't think that the county has that option under the law.

Just as we do not have an option to not file a RS (if one is required under 8762) because the client did not pay us, neither does the County Surveyor have such an exemption to his requirement to timely file the map. Collection of delinquent fees is a separate, albeit related matter.


Dennis, the LA fees are reasonable, IMO.

[MikeTurnrose]

I would totally be in favor of streamlining the ROS checking process. Make it as simple as possible. I agree with LS 3785 above. However, I think changing the LS Act will be a fairly big hurdle to overcome. We would have to get the entire CLSA behind it.

[btaylor]

I fail to see the connection between a lack of map checking and a bad survey putting the wall in the wrong place. The ROS is checked after the monuments are set - i.e, the wall is being done after the monuments are in. The masonry specialist is not waiting to hear back from the county surveyor before putting up the wall. It could be 90 days or more until that map is even seen by the map checker.

And if the homeowner is looking for the "cheapest", they can find them all the time. They are ones that will not file the ROS. Those are the 60D nails with flagging or the wood pegs/dowells that say "fence corner" instead of property corner.

So again, I see no difference with this analogy.

[Ian Wilson]

I get all the arguments about how many junk maps are turned in. I've been shown a few that shocked and saddened me. I like the idea of a second pair of eyes checking my map.

Having said all that, I'll offer up one word...Nevada.

$17 fees. Minimal map checking for ROS. How many boundary lawsuits are filed in Nevada because of poor ROS maps?

We are supposed to be professionals. Maybe its time to put our big boy pants on and BE professionals instead of whining about it. Maybe its time to put a lttle chlorine in our gene pool.

[btaylor]

DWoolley I am not trying to be a thorn in your side, but whereas I can see your point, the damage to the public can happen regardless. The bad surveyors out there will not do an ROS even if it had minimal ROS mapchecking fees. And on top of that, the monuments they set, if proper in terms of markings and materials, but set by some horrible procedures, are for the most part relied upon right away for improvements.

[Steve Martin]

I checked a Record of Survey once where the Surveyor set quarter corners in section 6 midway between the section corners. He was very happy that I called him on it and his big "doh" moment did not get memorialized for eternity.

I've seen the ugly and embarrasing draft ROS's too. I think there should be a County Surveyor in our profession to monitor and hold the minority to a standard of care that protects the public.

While some counties find a way to subsidize the cost of checking ROS's, those that go for full cost recovery are impacting the small private landowner and the cost of those surveys.

Perhaps it would be more productive to find a way to subsidize ROS checking across the state. Legislative changes to the Monument Preservation Fund enabling legislation to collect the fee on all deed and allow a percentage to subsidize some of the ROS check only could do the trick. I would vote to limit the ROS checking fee to $300 across the state if the Counties could get funding from other sources to make up the difference.

[Steve Martin]

I checked a Record of Survey once where the Surveyor set quarter corners in section 6 midway between the section corners. He was very happy that I called him on it and his big "doh" moment did not get memorialized for eternity.

I've seen the ugly and embarrasing draft ROS's too. I think there should be a County Surveyor in our profession to monitor and hold the minority to a standard of care that protects the public.

While some counties find a way to subsidize the cost of checking ROS's, those that go for full cost recovery are impacting the small private landowner and the cost of those surveys.

Perhaps it would be more productive to find a way to subsidize ROS checking across the state. Legislative changes to the Monument Preservation Fund enabling legislation to collect the fee on all deed and allow a percentage to subsidize some of the ROS check only could do the trick. I would vote to limit the ROS checking fee to $300 across the state if the Counties could get funding from other sources to make up the difference.

[PLS7393]

Bryan Taylor identified the current fees for San Mateo County ($400- for the first sheet, and $200- for each sheet thereafter) That gets you the original review and one additional attempt on your part to correct any technical issues. After that you pay $100- per sheet for each additional review. This is done to encourage the surveyors do a good job. Yes I initiated a ROS fee hike when we were $35,000- in the hole for ROS reviews at $188- a ROS. The first year after the hike in fees, we were only $9,000- in the hole.


Dave Wolley said: "To those that have never checked maps at an agency, it is unimaginable the quality of many/most submittals. Think Brando rubbing his bald head “the horror, the horror.”

A: I couldn't agree with you more!!!



Michael Pallamary said: "Why do some counties charge thousands of dollars to review a ROS map when others do not charge at all?"

A: Some counties have more support and more survey oriented than other counties. That would mean they have field crews, office support, and surveyors. Some counties have 3 or 4 people to do it all.

Michael Pallamary said: Is there any merit in financing the checking of survey maps through the addition of a fee similar to the monument preservation fee?"

A: Some counties do not have a monument preservation fee in place at this time, so that would not work.


Ok, back to map checking, I need a new red pen, LOL!!!


I think for a study of this magnitude, a complete list from all counties on their review fees for a ROS is the first start prior to any discussion. You need the data first.

[mpallamary]

As always, you are right on and your comments are very important and valid. I might undertake the fee study if I can find the time. I am just so darn busy right now.

[Ian Wilson]

Quite right, Willard. And, yet, sustainable or not, Wheeler IS the most oft cited case by County Councels in supporting intense scrutiny of ROS.

[mpallamary]

Thanks Sean,

Anyone else interested? I will post the findings on www.tiepoints.com as a central place. I am also working on a project to see how each agency treats the preparation of tentative maps. Some require only a surveyor, some only and engineer, most permit both and one permits a landscape architect. How about that?

[mpallamary]

Excellent. That would be great.

Thanks.

[LA Stevens]

Marin County ROS Checking Fee is $560.00 now.

[btaylor]

I think San Francisco is in the $500s now, but it used to be $100. Perhaps Dane can give us the proper input on this. I went the website for San Francisco but cannot seem to find the fee.

[Greg Ippolito]

SF has been at $553 for a year or so.

[btaylor]

Ironic with all the Fresno grads likely here that we see no input on the Fresno County amount.

[Lee Hixson]

Sutter County has recently raised its fee for a R. of S. It is now charged at the rate of $106/hour, with a $590 deposite.

[Lee Hixson]

Yes, that figure tends to be the average cost.

[Lee Hixson]

Calaveras County = $500 (flat fee, as far as I can tell from their website)

http://co.calaveras.ca.us/cc/Department ... veyor.aspx

[RAM]

Mariposa County,
R/S $100,
PM deposit of $150 + $5 per lot subject to an hrly rate, our maps run around $700-900 total for a Final Map.

Bad news is no work at the moment.